Author Topic: Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise  (Read 1134 times)

JuancarlinBass

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #45 on: February 04, 2010, 06:53:16 PM »
Oh the power of manifestation!!!
So, here I go:
 
I want a MK Balance K Omega Heart shape, a Series, an SC and a fretless Europa!
I want a MK Balance K Omega Heart shape, a Series, an SC and a fretless Europa!
I want a MK Balance K Omega Heart shape, a Series, an SC and a fretless Europa!
I want a MK Balance K Omega Heart shape, a Series, an SC and a fretless Europa!
I want a MK Balance K Omega Heart shape, a Series, an SC and a fretless Europa!
I want a MK Balance K Omega Heart shape, a Series, an SC and a fretless Europa!
I want a MK Balance K Omega Heart shape, a Series, an SC and a fretless Europa!
 
Ommmmmmmmmm! heheheh!!

bigredbass

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #46 on: February 10, 2010, 10:33:09 PM »
These discussions are always backwards to me, despite my previous comment above.
 
I always sound like me.
 
If I pick up a brown bass, I DON'T (can't, actually) sound like Stanley.
 
I wouldn't sound like Jimmy on a five-string Series 2.  Or Mark King.  
 
When I worked in music stores, kids always wanted to sound like the guitar hero of that day, what should I buy to sound like that, etc.
If you could play Eddie's rig, you still wouldn't sound like EVH.  Even if you knew his technique note for note.  
 
It's all relative.  Yeah, an old PBass with old strings thru a fliptop Ampeg is a great sound, and utterly different than a Series through a component rig.  Yet even that example could skew quite a bit depending on the player.
 
I tend to notice more the difference in feel, what it feels like to strap on different axes than the tone.  After a Series shape, EVERYTHING feels short!
 
J o e y

mike1762

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #47 on: February 11, 2010, 05:31:14 AM »
I think people tend to sound like themselves (no matter what instrument they're playing) because they compensate for tonal differences in the instrument with the amp settings.  Alembics have proven to be an exception for me.  My signature tone had always had a character that Alembics really can't reproduce no matter WHAT I do to the amp or bass (think Steve Harris, but with less low-end and a BUNCH more midrange).  This was QUITE distressing to me initially, but I have come to better understand how different woods, construction techniques, and electronics affect tone.  As such, I have a unique (to me) tone when using an Alembic and the tone I have traditionally favored when using one of my bolt-on basses.  Both tones are pleasing to my ear, but they are very different.  Back in the day (when I was playing !!!METAL!!!) my style and tone was similar to Harris and an Alembic would not have been the right tool to deliver those goods (interesting since I had never really listened to Iron Maiden much, yet I developed the same approach to bass guitar).  These days I'm doing more projects with other people that are decidedly NON-metal; therefore, the Alembic tone is perfect.  Of course I'm not saying you can't use an Alembic with !!!METAL!!! (as Danno and Flip can attest to), but I would not have been able to get the tone I wanted.  I've not had a chance to record with my Orion yet, I'll be interested to see if it's set-neck design will translate into something that more closely approximates my old signature tone.

jazzyvee

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #48 on: February 11, 2010, 09:15:53 AM »
I'm going to play devil's advocate here so bear with me and don't burn me as it's not the day of judgement yet.
 
If I got hold of a top of the range series bass and found a top rate luthier to cut off the neck in such a manner that I then could re-attach it to the body as a  bolt on neck joint, how much of the traditional alembic sound would I lose?
 
Would it still sound better than other bolt on-basses?
 
Would Mica & Ron want to remove my neck from my body in a similar fashion?
 
Jazzyvee
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

the_jester

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #49 on: February 11, 2010, 10:11:08 AM »
What kind of sound are you trying to achieve?
 
I would say, if you change the integrity of the Alembic structure, you'd pretty much altered the traditional sound(s) Alembic would originally create.
 
Then the question of -- would it sound better than other bolt on basses...
 
I am sure, it would sound better Jazzyvee. Hey it might even sound better than some Alembics out there... Go for it (the Devil says) and report your findings!
 
Peace and Love,
 
Hal-
 
(Message edited by the_jester on February 11, 2010)

jazzyvee

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #50 on: February 11, 2010, 10:36:51 AM »
Are you willing to donate the tomahawk for my research? ;-)
hahahaha
 
Jazzyvee
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

the_jester

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #51 on: February 11, 2010, 10:59:05 AM »
LOL!!!
 
I know you lost your mind now... (the Toma_Hawk???)
 
...Man, I was just about to send you a personal email, to tell you NOT to use your Dragon Magic!
 
That was great laugh, thanks Jazz!  
 
Peace and Love!
 
Hal-

mike1762

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #52 on: February 11, 2010, 12:24:00 PM »
Jazzyvee, that has actually been discussed here before.  The consensus was that you would indeed dramatically change the tone of your instrument.  To be a little more specific about my Signature Tone that I alluded to above: I had always favored a punchy mid-range heavy tone.  With a bolt-on bass, I always dialed in just enough bass so that I could hear a bump in the speakers response: on most amps that was around 10 or 11 o'clock.  The mid-range was usually at 3 o'clock and the treble was flat.  That tone is ingrained in my brain like my birthday, but an Alembic just will not do it!!!  My understanding from Mica's post on the subject is that the neck-through design imparts a scooped-mids response on the instrument that no amount of processing can over-come (if it wasn't there to start with...).  My Signature Tone was perfect for the music I was playing in the 80's, it's probably WAY too obnoxious for the stuff I'm doing now.  That being said, if Alembic offered a bolt-on model I would probably wait for one of you guys to buy one, decide you hated it, and buy yours.  LOL

mike1762

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #53 on: February 11, 2010, 12:29:39 PM »
Several folks on here have Bolt-ons with Alembic Activators... how much do those instruments sound like a neck-through Alembic???

the_jester

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #54 on: February 11, 2010, 12:50:52 PM »
Personally, I prefer bolt-on six sting lead guitars, over neck through ones. But with my Alembic or soon Alembics neck-through are royal.
 
My Godin Artisan ST is the best crisp sounding guitar I ever heard on any six string. I am sure they're  better sounding guitars, I hope you find it... but I simply love my Godin Artisan ST!
 
Peace and Love,
 
Hal-
 
(Message edited by the_jester on February 11, 2010)

jazzyvee

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #55 on: February 11, 2010, 01:17:17 PM »
I'm not looking to change the sound of my alembic at all,  I was just expressing a couriousity. As I said earlier I have not had enough decent non alembic basses to be able to quantify the difference in sound being attributed to the neck thru design as against anything else.  
To my ears all my instruments sound different because they are different. When buying an alembic I had no idea that there were sonic differences between bolt ons and neck through basses or guitars. I just wanted a bass that had the Stanley Clarke type tone and it just happened that alembic was a neck through.
 
I only discovered the difference in sound properties by reading these alembic threads not from personal experience. I still don't think I could tell if a bass or guitar was neck through, bolt on or set neck from a blindfolded test unless I was shown what to listen for. If I liked the sound of it, that would be enough.
 
I was so pleased that when I went to play at a festival in Canada a few years ago I heard what I thought was an alembic bass amongst the various stages, I went over to the stage to see the band and it was indeed an alembic and more importantly not an alembic I'd ever heard before.  
 
Jazzyvee
The sound of Alembic is medicine for the soul!
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

garth4664

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #56 on: February 11, 2010, 02:48:31 PM »
Here is how my 70's B00 series Music Man Stingray compares to my Series 1,2 Alembics.  Generally the Alembics are much more versatile, but even the Cocobolo series 1 does not have quite as much balls as the 70s Stingray. Unfortunately the Stingray is a bit of a one trick pony and really has only that one sound (with various amounts of bass/treble). The Coco Series one can come close to the sound of that bass with a bit of tweaking, but it is still different and a bit less forceful.
 
One other bass that I will never remove from my collection is a 60's short scale Australian hand made lute shaped bass. I have borrowed 60's hofner violin basses from time to time and the lute bass sounds similar but better, clearer and more defined. Again this is totally unique, but the schedua top series 2 (custom), which I think is more versatile than the cocobolo series 1, can come close to the sound with a lot of fiddling on the controls.
 
There is no way either of my series instruments can sound as organically complex as my 1950's Czech made 1/2 size blonde double bass - perhaps I need a classico?
 
I also have a custom 6 string warwick thumb bass with a very nice ebony fretboard. It sounds like a piano, and is more sterile than the alembic tone - it is still a very nice bass but does not really have any of it's own character sound wise. The Alembics (particularly the Coco Series 1) can almost replicate this tone but generally there is no reason to as they sound better anyway.
 
I sold my MV Pedulla and my PRS bass recently as both Series instruments can easily cover their tonal palates - they were completely redundant.
 
I was previously looking for a nice Rickenbacker 4001, but the Series electronics also seem to be able to cover the typical tones from these instruments, and I don't want one anymore.
 
One thing I have noticed is that (except for the lute bass) all my basses are physically heavy - I have a suspicion that this is more important than the neck construction (bolt on or neck through) for the tone of the bass.
 
If I could choose only one instrument it would be an Alembic Series bass,  but to be honest the notes that you choose are so much more important than the bass that you play.

lembic76450

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #57 on: February 11, 2010, 02:55:22 PM »
Ok, I can't recall one, but, has there been a set neck Series I/II?
Me, I'll keep my neck thru where it should be.

the_jester

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #58 on: February 11, 2010, 04:14:27 PM »
Bolt-on neck Alembic = A Frankenstein Alembic...  
 
(Message edited by the_jester on February 11, 2010)

dfung60

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Comparing Alembic to other "classic" basses, soundwise
« Reply #59 on: February 12, 2010, 05:09:35 PM »
jazzyvee -  
 
I don't think you need to go cutting up a Series bass to do this experiment!  
 
You can think of the instrument as a sort of mechanical filter for the sound of the strings vibration.  It has a frequency response - there are going to be resonant frequencies where the string's vibration is absorbed by the body and neck and what you hear is softer and areas where the instrument isn't eating up the energy.  The peaks and valleys are complex and give the instrument it's character.  Unlike your stereo where you ideally want the response to be even (flat), there's no right answer - it's just how the instrument sounds.  You may have heard the term formant which is how you refer to the characteristic physical frequency response of an instrument.  The body of a violin has a particular response because of the materials and construction - if you're lucky it will be right and you'll have a Stradavarius.  It's exactly the same with your Alembic too.  
 
The response of the instrument is fixed and each different note you play interacts with that response differently.  If you sample a piano and transpose it up an interval, a critical ear can hear that this isn't right because a digital sampler transposed the frequency response of the piano body as well as the note, where a real piano would have had a different relationship at each key.  Better synths deal with this by having 88 samples and some of the really good ones try to model the physical behavior of the piano's physicality.
 
The response of the instrument isn't just steady state either.  It may change with volume and may react really differently with as transients are struck and die down.  So, it's really complex.
 
When you use different woods in a guitar neck, the effect is that you're changing the frequency response.  A dark wood like mahogany is absorbing more of the highs; maple absorbs the lows instead.  Each piece of wood is different, too.
 
The construction makes a big difference too.  On a Fender, there's a really big effect not only because there's two different pieces of wood, but there's usually two different types of wood as well - maple in the neck, and alder or ash in the body.  Between the effect of the mechanical joint and the different woods, the general effect is that there's less sustain and the high frequencies die out pretty quick.  This is generally why bolt-ons seem more punchy.  You get a big blast of transient when you hit the note, and then it dies out and becomes less trebly pretty quick - that's punch.
 
A through-body has both ends of the string on the same piece (or pieces) of wood, so the sustain will probably be longer and there's also consistency of the wood type from end to end.  You get more sustain throughout the frequency range.  Because the note and it's harmonics aren't dying out so quickly, this is why people think that through-bodies are less punchy.
 
Set-necks are in between.  They have a tigher mechanical joint but the two ends of the strings are on different pieces of wood and maybe even different types of wood, so there will be an intermediate loss of sustain.
 
The neck joint is interesting.  If you're talking about a Fender, the density and physical characteristics of the body and neck are quite different.  This is a physical impedance match (similar to the electrical impedance between your amp and speakers).  When the sound moves from the higher density maple into alder, this actually causes a reflection at the joint - some of the vibration from the neck is reflected back into the neck.  You don't have this sort of mismatch with a through-body instrument.
 
The lamination in the Alembic neck have a couple of effects too.  First of all, the slices of wood  can be flipped when they're assembled which means that warp in the original piece can be counterbalanced.  And the different types of laminations blend their effects in the overall sound of the neck.
 
After all this babbling, I might also point out that there are instruments that model what the difference in sound might be.  An MTD bass has similar exotic woods and laminated neck contruction but is bolt-on instead of through-body so that's probably a pretty good hint of how the physical change will sound.
 
David Fung