Author Topic: Disappointed  (Read 561 times)

phylo

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« Reply #30 on: March 02, 2007, 09:45:45 PM »
Despite better judgement telling me otherwise, I am gonna jump in here.  
 
There have been numerous topics that don't relate to Alembic guitars here in the time that i have been checking out this message board.
 
I think we take a pretty hefty risk when we decide that there is one particular topic that is off limits.  Especially a topic that so many of us want to contribute towards.  
 
At 33, i still for some reason consider myself a young guy.  But I have seen a chasm spreading between our society.  The latest being red vs. blue, where opinion is reduced to a sport; one versus the other.  
 
Communication is the cure - and should have been the prevention.  In this blue vs red world, I clearly align with one side, but I do have an open mind and the comments on this thread have given me reason to think about what I think.  That is a positive thing.  
 
I think everyone should think about we think.  And as long as we don't behave like a football mob, we  should share our thoughts on important topics.  
 
The saying to 'never discuss politics and religion' is certainly best honored in certain situations, but if taken as a mantra, it is potentially dangerous.

the_8_string_king

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« Reply #31 on: March 03, 2007, 12:41:21 AM »
I couldn't agree with you more.
 
It's unfortunate that certain people/interests have succeeded in getting the masses to buy the notion that sex, politics, death, and religion shouldn't be discussed. (In other words, philosophy.)
 
I submit that it's self-evident that these are some of the most important philosophical topic for people to discuss.
 
It's arguably preferable to not discuss something than to have a pointless, uncivilized conversation -but, by the same token, it's better to discuss important things civilly than to repress/avoid discussing them.

the_mule

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« Reply #32 on: March 03, 2007, 02:50:05 AM »
Contrary to popular belief a forum isn't a public space. Both the owner and moderator(s) have the final decision in what topics are OK to discuss and what topics aren't.
 
There's plenty of places on the world wide web specially equipped and moderated for this purpose, where anyone can discuss the topics that Dave so kindly asked us to not discuss on this forum. There's also newsgroups that aren't moderated, that can give you a raw insight in how 'civilised' discussions can get out of hand very quickly, not to mention plenty of 'real life' situations where these topics are also accepted as a no-go area from a not-the-right-place-and-not-the-right-time perspective.
 
We should also take into account that this is a very international forum, as the Alembic community is spread all over the planet. My experience is that discussions about politics and religion are only guarnteed to remain civil as long as no-one ventilates a critical point of view. For example: after 9/11 I quickly learned to avoid all global-political discussions on international forums, because they without exeption resulted in heated you're either with us, or you're against us unpleasantness, sometimes damaging the atmosphere and communal sense of a forum completely and permanently. I'm sure we all would hate that to happen with the Alembic Forum.
 
I think there's very good reasons to avoid certain 'hot' topics in the off-topic/misc. section of a forum and I don't think it's fair to Dave to continue the discussion in this topic, thereby questioning / ignoring his kind request and (indirectly) this forum's rules.
 
Wilfred
Wilfred

1997 Orion 4 walnut

lbpesq

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« Reply #33 on: March 03, 2007, 09:29:16 AM »
Allright, I jumping back in.  You're either with me or against me.  So?  What's it gonna be?  Guitars or basses!  hehehehe
 
Mark wrote:  It's unfortunate that certain people/interests have succeeded in getting the masses to buy the notion that 'sex, politics, death, and religion' shouldn't be discussed.
 
I've heard politics and religion, but I hadn't heard sex and death included before.  I guess discussing death can almost be synonymous with discussing religion.  As for sex, the only reason I can imagine to avoid talking about it is the old saying: A picture is worth a thousand words!   LOL
 
Seriously though, this club is more like shooting the breeze in the lobby of the Hotel Wickersham rather than a public forum, with Dave as the  conceriege.  Our hosts have made a request.  I shall endeavor to honor it.
 
Bill, tgo

David Houck

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« Reply #34 on: March 03, 2007, 08:31:01 PM »
Jon and Mark;
 
You've made some interesting comments that suggest that I was unclear in my earlier posts.  So, to clarify:
 
I agree, communication is important.
 
Never discussing politics and religion is not my mantra.  I pretty much discuss them everyday.  I study politics every day.  I read several national blogs daily; and I contribute to one in particular from time to time.  I host an online discussion group (local, private) whose sole topic is politics.  I recently gave a talk at my congressman's office.  I train volunteers.  I attend and help organize meetings, events and rallies.  I carry signs.  I make telephone calls.  I sign petitions practically every day.  I call the offices of my congressman and my senators.  I write letters to the editor.  I educate myself on the issues.  My positions change as I accumulate more information.  I appreciate all sides of an issue.  My spiritual practice infuses every thing I do every day - everything I think and do is part of my spiritual practice.  I discuss practice with others regularly.  I read material related to my practice daily.  If I think someone can help me on my path, I'll ask; if I think I can be of assistance to someone on their path, I'll volunteer.  So no, never discussing politics and religion is not my mantra.
 
And no, I'm not trying to get the masses to buy the notion that sex, politics, death, and religion shouldn't be discussed.  I think they should be discussed.  I read and participate in these discussions all the time.  And I think everyone should continually educate themselves on these topics.  What I know about Iran today, I literally did not know yesterday.  There are lots of venues available for such discussions.  In fact, if you really want to start a discussion, it's very easy to setup your own blog and start having discussions.  You can put a link to your blog in your Alembic club profile, and all of the Alembic club members who want to join you in that discussion can click on the link and do so.  You can email all of your friends, family and work related contacts and invite them as well.  There are just zillions of blogs that discuss the war.  If you aren't having daily discussions on these topics it's not because venues aren't available.
 
Wilfred talked about forums where the atmosphere and communal sense were completely and permanently damaged.  I've seen it happen, several times.  Online communities that I participated in and cared for, including some that I hosted, and some that were invitation only, just disintegrated.  Invitation only; we invited people that we knew, and that we thought could have a civil discussion about politics; it was a disaster.  In these cases, people whose online company I really enjoyed and valued would leave because of the comments of others.  People get very emotionally and viscerally engaged on certain topics.
 
So it has been my experience that there are forums where people can go and relax and feel at home and feel a sense of community.  And there are forums where people can go and expect to talk politics.
 
Now I acknowledge that I may be completely wrong about this.  I'm just trying to help this forum the best I can as moderator given the experience set that I have to draw on.  I don't and can't know what will happen.
 
Personally, I get very emotional about the war.  While Alan was in Iraq, I kept a picture of him beside me at my desk.  I thought about him, and Iraq, and the war, every time I looked up at that picture.  I was very happy when he returned home from the war.  I would imagine that we all get emotional about war, no matter what side of the debate we are on.  When it comes to war, positions that you hold dear will be painful to others, and positions that others hold dear will be painful to you.
 
There was a case here in this forum where a club member stated that another club member's pride and joy Alembic was ugly.  People say hurtful things often without even thinking about it or realizing it.  When you start talking about issues where people have starkly opposing and strongly held emotionally charged positions, it just seems to me that you increase the chances of saying hurtful things, even if you don't mean to.  And then this place might not be the comfortable oasis for some that it has been.
 
There are a lot of members of this forum, over 2,000; and they are from all over the world.  We are all drawn to this forum because the main topic here is Alembic basses and guitars.  I would imagine that for some, this place is a refuge; a warm and inviting place to go where you know you are amongst friends, like-minded individuals who think, talk and live Alembic; people who will look at pictures of your beloved Alembic and appreciate it as much as you do.  I would imagine that if you're a bass player in Jerusalem, there's a chance that maybe you don't want to know that the guy who said all those great things about your bass has a totally polar opposite position on the settlements than you do.  Maybe you just don't really need to know that about him.  Maybe it's just too emotional of an issue for you.  Maybe if you are a guitar player in Mexico City, maybe you don't want to know what that guy who loves your Alembic thinks about your brother who's in the US illegally.  Maybe all you wanted was some people to talk guitars with.  Maybe you're really emotionally burned out on hearing people talk about immigration and you're just looking for a place with a great group of people who love talking about guitars.
 
I don't know.
 
Maybe the last thing that any of you wanted to know was that the moderator has strongly held political views.  After all, what he really needs to be doing with his time is practicing bass.

adriaan

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« Reply #35 on: March 05, 2007, 05:52:46 AM »
I felt saddened by the original poster's hunger for battle. Born and bred in a nation that is proud of having virtually no patriotism, the notion of willing to die for your country is pretty foreign to me. It would be such a waste.
 
To show my colours, I should add that I was officially recognized as a conscientious objector to military conscription, and was made to serve time-and-a-half in civilian duties (and a cushy job at that).

phylo

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« Reply #36 on: March 05, 2007, 08:00:50 AM »
Dave,  
 
I want to clarify that my comments were not meant as condemnation of your request, but as my $.2 (or less) on the dire polarity that is growing in this country and probably the world.  
 
I recongnize that this is a forum on a commercial website.  I respect your decision on what is to be disucussed and ultimately and sadly agree that you are correct to nip this in the bud before someone is offended, insulted or otherwise disrespected.  
 
This forum has been a highly enjoyable diversion for me over the past few years.  Thanks to everyone who is a part of it.  
 
Ain't no time to hate.

811952

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« Reply #37 on: March 05, 2007, 11:01:57 AM »
I'm just glad you're all here (wherever here may be), and posting stuff for me to read and view!
 
John

keavin

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« Reply #38 on: March 05, 2007, 01:13:42 PM »
Just my 2cents what i dont understand is iraq was no threat to us at all before 911 & after, so why invade a country that did nothing to us & now that poor country is violently outta control & is deteiorating daily rapidly. we cant win that war because there's too many terrorists  willing to die & take americans & innocent people with them. so we spend $100 trillion trying to put a band-aid on a shotgun wound that wont stop bleeding & then we got soldiers coming home with no legs & arms and on the other side of the coin we cant find bin laden?!!!!remember he is the one on the run for the 911 incident! so what the F#@k are doing in iraq???

David Houck

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« Reply #39 on: March 05, 2007, 04:36:10 PM »
Thanks Jon!

richbass939

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« Reply #40 on: March 05, 2007, 06:40:49 PM »
Dave and some others here, THANK YOU.  I think what some of you are trying to do here is preserve the Alembic club as the warm, caring bunch of people we, for the most part, are.  There is one thing we all seem to agree on.  That is that we all love Alembics and the Alembic company.  That is what sets this club apart from the others.  We could discuss all the things that we disagree on until the club membership is polarized to the point that every US member is so POd at the other side that we can't even talk about Alembics anymore.
Several people have suggested that the subject of the US's role in the war be discussed elsewhere.  There has already been enough damage done here.  I'm sure that there are several people here who will no longer be able to read certain individuals' posts without thinking about their political views.  That is too bad because people here have many fine comments and suggestions about Alembics and how to enjoy them to the fullest.
Most importantly, I feel, is that it has been suggested that we treat this forum as if we are guests in the Wickersham home.  I don't think any of us would dream of turning a dinner invitation from Ron, Susan, and Mica into a verbal slugfest with another invited guest.  I feel we need to do the same here, as has been requested by Dave.  
I hope that this club can stay the same warm place that it has been for me for the last 2  1/2 years.  I like it here and want to see the feeling continue.
Thank you,
Rich

olieoliver

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« Reply #41 on: March 05, 2007, 07:21:11 PM »
I couldn't agree more Rich.  
 
Very well put too.