Salute on Memorial Day

[2400wattman]

Bill,  
 Even though this is a Miscellaneous posting section, I thought that it was understood that these discussions would not take place here. Actually, I could be wrong on this but I thought that Alembic did not want these subjects (political, religous, etc.) posted here. I'm in favor of it as these are touchy matters and the vast majority of the time they separate and segregate. This is not what I'm here for and this is not what has drawn everyone else here.  
However, this is a free country and I won't tell anybody what they can or can't discuss. So if this thread continues I won't comment any further. BTW Bill, you are correct about when the flag SHOULD be burned.

[adriaan]

IIRC, the accepted tone of discussion is that of a friendly gathering in a family living room. We should consider ourselves guests of the Wickersham household, and behave accordingly.
 
To me, restrained means no name calling.

[applejuice]

Unfortunate- this is not a political thread, and should have remained.
Could have been a good thing- a salute to veterans, not to criticize our nations government.
Neutral- not everyone agrees with what you said.
 
I also appreciate intelligent and civilized thoughts, but this is not the place to be doing it. Anytime something that has to do with the military comes up in this forum is not the correct time, either.

[adriaan]

Those in power want people to think that patriotism is not a political issue. And perhaps it shouldn't be. But who's confusing the issue?

[the_8_string_king]

Joe, this most definitely started as a political thread.  The assertion that we're still the greatest country in the world (or whatever the precise verbage -if I'm off a little) is clearly a political statement.  The statement explicitly makes a comparison between our country (and therefore, the political system -and the two are inseparable... be clear on that) and the other countries in the world.
 
This is NOT unfortunate.  What IS unfortunate is that someone who is fighting to protect the right to civilly discuss such extremely important issue would regard it as unfortunate.
 
Censorship IS an unfortunate thing.  Now let's be clear, I'm not saying nor implying there is censorship here.  First of all, this is a private forum, and those who provide/maintain this PRIVATE forum therefore have the right to have any standards they choose... period.  So let's be clear on that.
 
But censorship DOES exist, and it is on the rise all over the world.  Here is just one link full of examples -for any who would care to look: http://pcwatch.blogspot.com/2007_04_01_archive.html
 
Censorship is a devastating thing for many reasons.  It undermines, circumvents, and destroys communication.  It suppresses and distorts the truth -and strives to prevent people from having access to the truth.
 
The root of censorship is the fear of discussing ideas, of having a fair exchange.  Now again, to be clear, I'm not saying this is the case here.  It may or may not be... I don't know enough to say.  Some people consider some topics inappropriate in some venues; this is not, in and of itself, unreasonable, and it does not necessarily mean one advocates censorship nor fears free exchange of ideas.  So let's be clear on this, too.
 
But to get back to the beginning, this most definitely started as a political thread.  The statement we're still the greatest country in the world (or whatever) is in FACT a HIGHLY political statement... and one that begs a response.  There are a LOT of people out there who could conceivably be HIGHLY OFFENDED by the statement.
 
Is any of this unfortunate?  Not in my opinion.  I appreciate Olie's sentiment, and his expressing it -even though I disagree with some of it (as I also agree with some of it).
 
I submit that almost anything of value that anyone says implicitly has philosophical implications... metaphysical, epistemological, ethical, political, aesthetic, and psychological implications.  This is reality.  It's unavoidable.  It's not something to fear, or deny, or to run and hide from.  It's something to celebrate, and appreciate... and to handle responsibly and civilly.  And I think the overwhelming majority of us do that well the overwhelming majority of the time.  It's a good thing.  It's an important thing.
 
I'd urge you to re-evaluate your statement could have been a good thing -a salute to veterans, not to criticize our nations government, Joe.  I DO salute our veterans.  And that's part of why we need to criticize the government.  Our government has made a monumental blunder that has needlessly wasted the lives of a large number of veterans.  Based on a deliberate, calculated, and proven lie -a fabrication between Bush, Blair and others that Saddam had weapons of mass destruction.  To serve as an alleged justification for an invasion that has now produced the worlds biggest producer of terrorists.
 
This is one of the biggest and most obvious foreign policy blunders in the history of this country.  It's like the sun in the sky.  And it needs to be said.  Our veterans deserve better than to ignore and deny it.  They do.
 
Criticizing the government when it does bad things is precisely one of the most important things veterans are fighting for; criticizing the government which is responsible for this travesty does NOT dishonor them... precisely the opposite.
 
As far as neutral being not everyone agreeing with what I said... this doesn't make any sense -as far as I can see.  And it's unclear why one would desire/advocate neutrality in this context -in any event.
 
Finally, look at your last statement.  Anytime something that has to do with the military comes up in this forum is not the correct time, either.
 
Is this neutral?  (That's a rhetorical question).  Is it now your place to determine/decide the correct time?  Is this neutral.
 
Here you are accepting that things having to do with the military are coming up here in this forum... but I/others aren't supposed to respond?  Apparently.
 
Think about it.  What you've said is NOT neutral.  In fact, it is obviously and highly biased.
 
Everything I've said here has been a civilized, thought-out, leveled, and appropriate response to the initial POLITICAL post.
 
That is NOT unfortunate.  It IS unfortunate that some regard it as such -for unconvincing reasons- and it would be unfortunate if we either could not have such discussions, or felt we needed to censor ourselves from having them.
 
Take care folks, best wishes to you all.

[ajdover]

Again, contact me via email if you wish to discuss further.
 
Alan

[Bradley Young]

I'd like to apologize to the group for participating in the continuation of this very unfortunate discussion.
 
I retract my remarks.
 
(Message edited by byoung on May 30, 2007)

[811952]

This thread did begin with a political bent, though most likely that was unintentional.  
 
I think civil discourse about it helps remind us both who we are and how other people may see us, and provides another window into our values and how they may affect others.  That's not a bad thing, imho.  
 
None of this discounts the honor and memory of the sacrifices made by all who serve with the goal to make the rest of our lives better.  It's exactly the cause they have and are serving (and dying) for.  
 
Regardless of how I may view past/present/future leadership of the USA handles our foreign or domestic policies, the men and women who serve in our armed forces have my deepest support.  I feel I have an obligation to not put them at risk on my behalf if it can be avoided.  
 
To those of you who serve, thank you.
 
John
 
Maybe this forum needs a basement where we can discuss contentious issues (and blow off some steam or lay it all out) and keep them out of the friendlier, more useful areas!

[the_8_string_king]

Mark,  
 
With all due respect, I think you should end this thread.  
 
It isn't constructive, isn't appropriate, and seems quite ad hominem.
 
Opinion noted -although I disagree.  I feel it is constructive and appropriate.  And there is no ad hominem anywhere here -neither in word nor intent.
 
I do not consider, for instance:  
 
 
 
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quote:
When George Bush talks about freedom he's a disingenuous little scum-sucking weasel.
 
 
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or  
 
 
 
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quote:
We are responsible for 9/11. We brought it on ourselves.
 
 
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To be civilized or appropriate responses to Happy Memorial Day.  
 
Neither do I.  But that's NOT what they were responses to.  They were responses to the profoundly political -and arguably highly offensive- claim that this is still the greatest country in the world.  In that context, they were an appropriate and accurate response -IMO.
 
On the censorship issue: this is a private forum, you have precisely zero right to say anything at all here.
 
Absolutely true... of course, the same goes for you, me, Olie, and everyone else who is a guest here.
 
People were asking you to be polite
 
No, that's NOT what they were asking.  Don't take my word for it, you can re-read all the posts that were not edited.  It is very rare that anyone has cause to suggest I be polite or more polite; it's my nature to be polite.
 
and frankly, I think you should apologize publicly for attacking Olie.
 
Accusation noted... but since there WAS NOT any attack (at least by me)... as such, there isn't any to apoligize for.
 
That's all, folks.
 
I'm not going to add any further thoughts, I've said my piece.  And I stand by what I've said.
 
I respect you guys (and gals), and I wish you all well, each and every one of you.
 
And again, I do respect the veterans who have found to protect and preserve freedom.  And I do what I can, in my own way, on my scale, in the ways that I can -to honor their sacrifice.
 
Take care gang.  Best wishes.
 
Sincerely, Mark

[rraymond]

While the debate raged on, we BBQ'd some chicken, had cranberrie cole slaw, drank beer and played croquet. Me sizing up a shot:  

  The enthusiastic crowd (my nephew-in-law):  

  I hope everybody had a great weekend!

[applejuice]

Mark, email sent.

[lbpesq]

I know there are many members of this forum who live in countries other than the United States.  I'm curious if they agree that the U.S.A. is the greatest country in the world?  (We do have Alembic here, so I guess that gives us a leg up).  More seriously though, history is rampant with nations declaring they are the best, they are God's favorite, etc.  Personally, I was taught at an early age that talk is cheap.  What makes a country great takes more than shouting it the loudest.  There are certainly some great things about the U.S.A., but there are other things that I'm not as comfortable with.  We call ourselves the Land of the Free, yet, with only 5% of the world's population, we are home to 25% of the world's prison population.  Yesiree, when it comes to putting people in cages, we're number one, and number two has been left in the dust.  I see the lack of health care that afflicts the economically disadvantaged and see other nations that provide universal health care for the citizenry.  I see a public school system that has been on the decline for most of my adult life, while a nation like Costa Rica has a far higher literacy rate.  I see that the U.S.A. is second only to Latvia as having the highest infant mortality rate among developed nations.  I see a natural disaster of epic proportions devastate New Orleans and areas of the Gulf Coast with only a modicum of aid provided to the victims.  Am I unpatriotic because I don't close my eyes to these facts and scream out We're the best!?  I love my country.  As an attorney with my undergrad degree in Political Science, I am in awe of the Constitution, the principles this nation was founded upon, and the progress that has been made in the 231 years since our birth.  I fear that too many people in this land take things for granted and don't understand that the cost of freedom in continual vigilance.  I applaud my country when she is right, but I will never shy away from calling her on the carpet and attempting to fix things when she is wrong.  
 
Bill, tgo

[olieoliver]

I was intending on straying away from this can of worms I unintentionally opened. But I feel I must clarify my original statements.
 
First off no apology is needed from Mark for I never felt that I was being personally attacked and I was never insulted by anything Mark said.  
 
Secondly my statement was miss stated, what I should have typed was, ?I feel that I live in the greatest country in the world?. This would be the same as me stating that I think the Dallas Mavericks are the greatest basketball team in the world. This would relay it more as my opinion than as me stating it as a fact.  
 
And to everyone here I have nothing but the greatest love and respect, and I refuse to get angry with any of my brothers or sisters here.  
 
Now may I ask a favor? Considering that I started this thread may I request that we close it?  
 
Peace to all and lets enjoy each other while we can.
 
Olie

[grateful]

I've refrained from posting on this thread but must say I'm super impressed at the restraint, courtesy and good manners displayed in discussing such a contentious issue (on which I'm saying nothing!).
 
Well done, this sure is the greatest (international) on-line forum.
 
Mark
 
(Message edited by grateful on May 30, 2007)

[811952]

rraymond - Looks like a day well spent!  Good company, too!
 
John