Author Topic: Salute on Memorial Day  (Read 455 times)

olieoliver

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Salute on Memorial Day
« on: May 28, 2007, 09:08:54 AM »
Sorry guys I'll keep it to music from now on.
 
(Message edited by olieoliver on May 29, 2007)

dannobasso

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #1 on: May 28, 2007, 09:44:28 AM »
Olie, Thank you for expressing that so clearly.  
Thank you also to all the men and women who volunteer for the armed forces and sacrifice to serve the country and the world at large,

the_8_string_king

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #2 on: May 28, 2007, 10:00:48 AM »
Hmm.
 
That's quite a package deal, Olie.
 
I have great respect for A LOT of the people who serve in the military... my father was career Army -he served in Viet Nam- and my uncle also served in Viet Nam.
 
And I have the utmost respect, in particular, for the Veterans of WWII.
 
I tend to think or BELIEVE that a large percentage -HOPEFULLY the majority- of people serving in the military are good people who fit the profile of people who are risking their lives for freedom, the rest of us, etc.
 
Unfortunately, it is clear that there are A LOT of bad apples out there.  I like to think they're a small amount... but there's some really disturbing evidence to the contrary.  I recall recently (past couple weeks) seeing a survey indicating a shockingly large amount of soldiers (40%?) indicating that non-combatant civilians don't necessarily deserve to be treated with dignity, and a large percentage of soldiers indicating they'd help cover up atrocities done by fellow soldiers.
 
I come from a military/police family.  And I know a lot of things that are well-known to others from such backrounds.  The sad truth is that, while there are a lot of truly wonderful & exceptional people who are risking their all for freedom, apple pie, etc... while a lot of people in the military represent the best of us... there are a lot of people who represent the worst of us -to be sure.
 
Saying this won't win me points in a popularity contest... but it needs to be said.
 
I'm not at all convinced we're living in the greatest country in the world... at one point in my life, this was arguably the case... it certainly is NOT the case now.  We are certainly living in one of the most deluded countries in the world.
 
I tend to BELIEVE that the majority of people serving in the military now genuinely believe they are fighting for freedom... but, while they're over there fighting for freedom or whatever they're actually doing... freedome is being dismantled as we speak... as you read this.
 
I consider the President and our political leadership to be an INFINITELY greater threat to freedom than Al-Quida.  This is NOT to say I don't consider them a threat... I DO.  It's simply to say that the threat from Al-Quida pales in comparison the the threat imposed by the like of the traitors that are currently in political power in our country.  Their list of transgressions is as long and well-known as it is obvious.
 
The two fastest growing industries in this country are the prison industry and the debt industry.  Why doesn't our government do anything about it?  Well, amoung other things, because it has a vested interest in it... it profits from it.
 
For decades, the American government has spend as much or more money trying to imprison people like me and Bill and Flax and MANY OTHERS for excercising our rights... to smoke a little pot, for example.  I currently can't do this anymore... but that's not the point.  When George Bush talks about freedom he's a disingenuous little scum-sucking weasel.  He's a liar.  George Bush has done more -INFINITELY MORE- to harm freedom than Osama Bin Laden did -or ever could do.  Osama's victory(ies) can only come through the default of American leaders... who for decades have been more worried about depriving harmless smokers of their rights, and imprisoning productive patriotic citizens in jail -than in protecting them and everybody else from the likes of Al Quida.
 
I'm scared of Osama Bin Laden... but just a little.  I'm VERY SCARED of George Bush -and Hillary Clinton as well... THEY'RE the ones who have screwed up this country.  They -and their ideology- are responsible for bringing things to this point.
 
If all the money and resources wasted on putting pot-smokers in jail was spent on actually protecting freedom and American lives, and if the U.S. wasn't complicit and directly responsible for well-known mass scale violations of human rights in the Middle East (and all over the world) we wouldn't be dealing with all this right now.  This is the chickens coming home to roost.
 
Remember the Iranian Hostage crisis?  I do.  It started because the CIA had been propping up the Shah of Iran... for some time.  Our country was responsible for sending the CIA over there to teach his cronies how to torture and terrorize the people, and keep them in line.
 
The Iranian people knew this.  Even if Americans CHOOSE to be oblivious.  And we've been doing this for decades, all over the world... in Iran, Iraq, Angola, Saudi Arabia, Nicaragua, El Salvadore... just to name a few.
 
And the U.S. is (obviously) highly involved and complicit in the pervasive and gross atrocities committed by Israel.  Again, this is common knowledge, and plain fact.
 
Can anyone blame the Iranians for their response?  How?  On what grounds?  The fact is, America was largely responsible for their Islamic Revolution.
 
And we all know we were ARMING SADDAM.  The crimes he was eventually hung for... they were committed while he was our boy.  Again, this is plain fact, as undeniable as the sun in the sky.  The fact is, there is a long list of Americans who deserved (and still do deserve) to be hung with him.
 
It gives me NO PLEASURE to say this.  But it needs to be said -as much, if not more, than plattitudes about supporting the military.
 
WE ARE RESPONSIBLE for what's happened over there.  We are responsible for 9/11.  We brought it on ourselves.  We made it inevitible.  It came as no surprise when I saw it on TV.  The thing I remember feeling is surprise that it took so long.
 
And it is equally inevitible that there will be more... a lot more... until we identify and address the policies that are responsible for these things.
 
I also must take issue with your characterization of people burning the American flag as unthinking and ungrateful.
 
It is certainly possible (and likely) that SOME people fall into this category.  But I know plenty of people who support it in principle as a protected form of free expression, and also as a way of drawing attention to the horrible atrocities committed by the American government.  Unthinking and ungrateful?  No, that is not necessarily the case.  I would have to say that my experience is the opposite extreme.  I've met two people that have burned flags, and they were both extremely intelligent and patriotic people.  They were NOT in any way unthinking, nor ungrateful.
 
It is important that we all respect the sacrifices of people who risk their all to protect freedom; but it is AT LEAST AS important that we respect people and efforts that PREVENT the needless sacrifice of these people.
 
If there were more people burning flags -for the right reasons- and more people engaging in intelligent discourse about the many valid reasons for burning the flag... maybe our military personel wouldn't have even been their wasting their lives in the first place.
 
It's all such a needless waste.  Their sacrifices are so totally needless.  That is the great tradgedy.
 
Let's make sure we strive to become and/or continue to be conscious... so that we can minimize future tradgedies.
 
Take care, folks, I wish you all the best.
 
And to all the well-meaning folks in the military... you DO have my utmost respect and support.  But even more, you have my resolve that I don't want to see you dying and sacrificing pointlessly -because of obliviousness and stupidity on the part of our people and our leaders.

lbpesq

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #3 on: May 28, 2007, 10:20:03 AM »
See my  personal quote in my profile.
 
Bill, tgo

j_gary

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #4 on: May 28, 2007, 11:16:40 AM »
Mark, it's obvious you put some time and thought into your post, and your make some valid points. These types of dicussions can be difficult, painful and perhaps neccessary.
 
I don't pretend to know or think that the leaders of the U.S.A. are always angels. But because of the many souls who have paid dearly for our right to sit here and type without fear, I will never accept the burning of an American flag by anyone other than a combat veteran. They have earned the right, while it's just handed to us.
 
While the U.S.A. can be a bully, no one has done more good for so many. If the savages are angry at our leaders, then fly their sorry asses into the buildings of those who are responsible, why murder innocent civilians?  
 
Aw shoot, it's an endless chicken or the egg debate. Today is about honoring those who did the heavy lifting so that we could run our mouths. To all those who have served, I am deeply grateful and say thank you. While America is not perfect, most want to come here, few want to leave.

the_8_string_king

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #5 on: May 28, 2007, 11:34:28 AM »
I agree with most/much of what you say... and appreciate your intelligent and level-headed response.
 
And I DO most certainly respect those who have done the heavy lifting... so I can run my mouth.
 
I hope we all will do as much as they can to respect the sacrifices they make -and to, as much as possible, prevent/minimize the need to make such sacrifices in the first place.
 
An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.  I would prefer to see as many as possible of the sacrifices our military make be necessary ounce of prevention sacrifices... rather than unnecessary pound of cure sacrifices.
 
I can think of no better way to honor our soldiers than to make sure that the sacrifices they make ARE necessary sacrifices... rather than unnecessary wastes of lives and potential that result from obliviousness and short-sighted political policies.

811952

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #6 on: May 28, 2007, 11:45:44 AM »
I'm with Bill on this one.  
 
John

the_8_string_king

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« Reply #7 on: May 28, 2007, 02:31:14 PM »
Me too!  I love that quote, Bill.  And I saw it long before today.
 
Have you seen mine?  I'm guessing you'd be able to peg the source.

tbrannon

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #8 on: May 28, 2007, 03:17:06 PM »
My hats off to all those who have served- past and present.
 
Some here might not agree with the cause, but the committment and price paid by those we're honoring is without question.

811952

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #9 on: May 28, 2007, 05:08:36 PM »
My hats off to all those who have served- past and present.  
 
Some here might not agree with the cause, but the committment and price paid by those we're honoring is without question.
 
True words.
 
John

lbpesq

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #10 on: May 28, 2007, 05:38:55 PM »
Mark:
 
Actually, I can't place the source, so I googled it - and came up with .......... your Alembic profile!
 
Mine is actually two different quotes.  The second, about the flag and the Constitution, I got off of a bumper sticker.  The first, which is my personal motto, is from one of my all time favorite films, Mr. Smith Goes to Washington, the Frank Capra film with Jimmy Stewart.  A great film that Rove, Cheney, and W should be forced to watch.
 
Toby:  very well said.  And I'm reminded of something Michael Moore said in his 911 movie, paraphased it went something like this.  
 
The agreement we have with our fine men and women in the armed forces is that they are prepared to give their lives to protect us.  Our part of the bargain is that we will never send them into harm's way unless it is absolutely necessary
 
I take no issue with how the military has lived up to their end of the deal over the course of this nation's history.  It is the failure of government to hold up its end of the bargain that I find unfortunate, to say the least.
 
Back in '86, having just graduted from law school, I visited D.C. with a friend.  I became very emotionally moved at the Vietnam memorial.  A veteran came over to comfort me and asked if I was a veteran of the war.  I told him I was a veteran of the war against the war.  We looked at each other and strongly connected as we realized that 15-20 years earlier we probably would have been enemies, but now we both could undrstand the other and that we were both victims of the times.  
 
It would be nice if people could actually learn something from history, wouldn't it?
 
Bill, tgo

ajdover

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #11 on: May 28, 2007, 09:00:39 PM »
I think we probably need to take this offline - I see this evolving into a very passionate political discussion.  I have some very different thoughts than Mark's based on my three tours/trips to the Middle East (including Baghdad last year), eighteen months in Korea (where I am currently serving), short trips to Europe, etc.  Suffice to say I disagree in the main with many of Mark's points, though his positions on some issues are valid as far as I can tell.  If anyone wishes to discuss this further, email me.
 
To all veterans, past and present, I hope this Memorial Day has been a time of reflection, remembrance, and most of all of honoring our war dead, past and present.  
 
Alan

applejuice

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #12 on: May 28, 2007, 09:32:53 PM »
It's unfortunate that this thread has turned political, it could have been a good thing. Could things be kept neutral around here please?

lbpesq

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« Reply #13 on: May 28, 2007, 09:51:01 PM »
Actually, I'm impressed with the restraint being shown.  Isn't the town square where all viewpoints can be freely expressed and discussed with respect and civility what this country is supposed to be about?  As for flag burning, I remember from my Boy Scout days that if a flag becomes worn, damaged or even if it merely touches the ground, it is supposed to be burned.  Am I remembering this correctly?
 
Bill, tgo

the_8_string_king

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Salute on Memorial Day
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2007, 11:19:51 PM »
Unfortunate?  Could have been a good thing?
 
That's silly talk.
 
Neutral?  What does that mean?
 
I appreciate the intelligent and civilized thoughts of the other posters.
 
Take care, gang.