Did you ever see a grown man cry?

[bsee]

That sucks.  The furniture stores up here are packed with inventory and having regular sales to move things.  It can't be economical to ship the stuff back and forth across the country, but you would think they could get enough inventory delivered to an area of high demand, especially two years later.  Of course, if you're looking for a cocobolo headboard with ebony stringers, you might just have to wait.  Here's hoping they deliver on time or ahead of schedule for you.

[2400wattman]

ever see a grown man cry?.....I did when I was eight. I was wrestling with my dad and punched him in the balls! This was before I knew of any kind of etiquette in wrastling!

[jacko]

Oh Boy :-(  I certainly didn't start this topic as a political debate, I was simply hoping to remind folks that there are still problems in New Orleans that shouldn't be swept under the mat. My original point was that I found the documentary emotionally draining and while Bob's right to say you can't believe everything you see on TV, I believe this was one case where the facts were presented in a pretty unbiased way. So, to repeat what Dave has said, while it's certainly understandable that this is an emotional issue, we don't have to attack each other here in our forum.
 
Graeme

[kmh364]

Good Advice, Dave!
 
Thanks for always being the voice of common sense and reason.
 
Cheers,
 
Kevin

[terryc]

Jacko - guess the advice is right on general terms..don't discuss politics or religion in discussion whether in the pub or on an internet forum.
I can imagine the people in Gloucester don't care about the politicians..they just wanted clean water

[olieoliver]

Very sound and good advice Dave.  
 
To quote another very very important man (important to me anyway) ...Love your neighbor as yourself....
 
Olie

[lbpesq]

I apologize if my remarks went over-the-line.  Considering that I spend a good deal of my time battling a gov't that is trying to put my client in a cage because they have Cancer, HIV/AIDS, Glaucoma, MS, Epilepsy, etc. and followed a doctor's advice to obtain relief, it's not always easy to walk away from an opportunity to call the Feds on the carpet where they have acted contrary to the interests of the American people.
 
Bill, tgo

[the_8_string_king]

Unless someone has said something blatently uncivil, and/or for the sake of being deliberately malicious, they should not apoligize for what they've said.
 
It is my responsibility -first and formost to myself... but second, to others- to have integrity, and to show it in my words and actions.
 
It is my responsability to call it as I see it -and, of course, to do it with a heart free of malice.  It is my responsibility to speak the truth as I see it, and to do it civilly, and, of course, to also acknowledge mistakes when I make them.
 
It is NOT my responsibility to assume responsibility for others; if others get bent out of shape over my civilly stating my opinion, that is, frankly, their problem.  It is in their best interests to get over it, and to learn to rationally assimilate and integrate the thoughts of others without irrational responses -just as it is my obligation to do the same.
 
If someone states their opinion in a civil manner, then -no matter what I may think of it- I should respond (or not) in a civil and rational manner.  The idea that others should not civilly speak their mind because I (and/or others) might get bent out of shape by it is absurd.  Likewise the other way around.
 
There is no more worthwhile activity than human beings sharing their thoughts, opinions, and ideas in a civil manner.  Nothing bad comes from this.  The bad comes from censorship... external... or -even worse- internal censorship.  And/or from people reacting irrationally because they haven't assumed responsibility for their intellect, integrated their emotions and reason, and instead seek to restrict others expression.
 
Speak your mind, people.  Call it as you see it.  Do it civilly and rationally, and don't apoligize for it.  By all means, if you make an error, acknowledge it.  If you wrong someone, apoligize for it.  But don't apologize for saying something that someone might get offended about.  Because -trust me- THERE ISN'T anything you can say that someone can't or won't choose to be offended by.
 
I have many thoughts on the issue this thread was focusing on.  But I'm not going to share them here and now -because I think it was more important to share my thoughts on this underlying issue.
 
Take care folks.  I appreciate the intelligent thoughts I frequently see on this forum -and I hate to think I might be missing some that people are afraid to express.

[bsee]

Mark, I think you're missing one key point.  This is Alembic's house.  Alembic has asked us not to delve into political discussion here because of where it inevitably leads.  I don't recall, but I suspect that there are probably a couple other topics to be avoided for similar reasons.
 
There's a time and a place for everything, including expressing views on topics that matter to you.  If a line was crossed here, it wasn't with regard to the political views that were expressed, but that political views were expressed at all.  There are plenty of places for such discourses, but this is supposed to be neutral ground.
 
When I first posted on this thread, it was with the intent of pointing that out.  I tried to write a relatively objective and neutral post, but apparently I failed to do so based on the aggressive and critical responses.  A perfect example of why certain topics are to be avoided on these boards.

[the_8_string_king]

Bob, it is NOT inevitable that political discussion leads to anything negative; this simply isn't the case.
 
It IS inevitable that when people are irrational and/or uncivil, THAT leads to negativity.
 
Which, of course, is why being irrational and/or uncivil should not be tolerated.
 
It does not follow that people should exercise self censorship because others may be uncivil and/or irrational.
 
And Susan herself told me this is our forum.  Of course, we should be appreciative and gracious, and conduct ourselves accordingly, in a civil manner.  And I think most of us do, most of the time.  And I've seen several examples of people apoligizing for things they've said/done.  So the system works.
 
One thing I feel compelled to point out, is there has been a pattern, time and time again, where members DO post threads of a philosophical nature -often political and/or religious- and nothing is said to suggest they edit or delete said posts... it's only when someone else challenges them or discusses them -the logical response to such posts- that we hear the old these kinds of discussions aren't appropriate here comments.
 
You can't have it both ways.  If you have a problem with philosophical posts, then logic and consistency demand you take issue with people that make/start such posts, rather than taking issue with those who respond to them.
 
Doesn't that seem fair and reasonable?
 
Of course, if we're afraid to have civil philosophical discussions, that would be pretty sad.  But if the powers that be really want to not have any philosophical discussion, maybe the miscellaneous section should just be removed all together, and have an official rule that there will be no conversation or discussion of any kind other than music and instruments.  That would be sad, and I'm skeptical anyone would really want this... but... unless we have that... the alternative IS to have/allow/permit philosophical discussions.  In which case, we should simply insist on civility, and take issue with those who are uncivil.
 
Take care folks, that's all I have to say.  Again, I respect and enjoy the intelligent and civil posts I read here, and I'm glad to seeing people sharing their thoughts in a civil manner -even when I disagree with them.

[bsee]

Mark, I agree that the initiator of such discussions is at least as much to blame as the ones who respond.  Often, it is just a little sarcastic comment that starts the ball rolling and it can be very hard for a reader to hold one's tongue under such circumstances.  Some forums are plagued with trolls who would throw out a quick post to agitate things and then step aside with a bag of popcorn to watch the fireworks.  Personally, I would rather this weren't one of them.
 
While there are all sorts of posts that can create disagreement, I think it is generally accepted that politics and religion are dangerous topics because of the fervor with which people defend their positions.  Is it truly inevitable that such threads will devolve?  No, but experience says that they do with regularity, and what frequency and level of hostility makes for an acceptable threshold?  
 
As far as the Miscellaneous forum is concerned, there are an awful lot of valuable things that we discuss here other than religion and politics.  I think it would be shortsighted to eliminate this resource entirely because of the occasional thread that goes too far.  We can disagree about which of the motorcycle roads in the NC/TN area are the most enjoyable to ride without it getting personal.  Between this thread and the Didn't see that coming thread, I think we've done a pretty good job in showing the ugly side of what happens when religion and politics are the topics of discussion.
 
Finally, I'd say we're not in an environment that wants to be heavily policed with users banned for bad behavior.  What other recourse is there for those who incite others or escalate tensions?  I believe that we are better served by reserving our positions on such matters for expression in other forums and focusing our discussions here on less divisive topics.

[jakebass]

I Haven't read the entire thread, so apologies for any inaccuracy, what I have understood from glancing through most of the posts is that, as Mark eloquently points out, is that discussion, for the vast majority of the time is being held here in the most civil of terms, sometimes people get heated. So far most here seem intelligent enough to cope with that (I myself try to be understanding of peoples weak spots by remembering that I too have some glaring ones)  
I understand that this forum is hosted by and mainly for Alembic and its almost magical produce, that understood, I for one value hearing the views and opinions of my fellow musicians, however polemic. bsee and 8_string_king are expressing some core philosophical values that I delight in knowing are being expounded outside my own house (where I tend to rattle on ad infinitum)and whats more in my daily life I have few and far between opportunities to encounter this breadth of intelligence, discussion and opinion. despite the odd bit of heat It seems to me that we self regulate pretty well here with the help of some seriously well natured and level headed moderation (i refer to Dave of course) So if I may say without apology. KEEP IT COMING GUYS.
Yours in the spirit of Liberty
Jake.