Author Topic: To Be Video'd - Or Not? (Read 259 times)

bassilisk · « **on:** September 02, 2009, 06:50:30 AM »

I wanted to throw this out there for your takes on it. Many have responded to this in the thread re JimmyJ in Bass Player. Let's address this from a non-pro perspective - no money/copyright issues etc. Local bands doing local shows.

I realize everyone will have a different take - new bands will want publicity (the old saying goes, there's no such thing as bad publicity). I'm not in that position.

To repeat, I play in a cover band - we're weekend warriors not pros, but we've had a measure of success over the years and work steadily. Between clubs and concerts we average 100+ shows a year. Our name and rep has become established locally (Long Island, NY) in the 24+ years the band's been around - I've been in this band for 16 years so we have a following, many that go back to the beginning.

I echo JimmyJ's feelings regarding taping of a live show. It's one thing to take some still pictures or catch a bit of song here and there on a phone, but there are people that come with tripods and tape everything. For what? Why not just come see us again? We're doing covers for crissakes!

I dislike the idea that we have no control over any recorded material and would prefer it didn't happen. Of course, it's not realistic to think this can be enforced at every situation, but in a dinner club, where it's a more intimate environment for example, we'll ask anyone doing it continuously to stop.

Everyone has less than stellar shows and there is no way to control what happens to the tape. A lot of players don't care one way or the other. These are my personal feelings and I'm interested in hearing yours.

Will

David Houck · « **Reply #1 on:** September 02, 2009, 07:47:30 AM »

As an aside; if you are doing over a hundred paid gigs a year, you may be, in my view, and I think not unreasonably so, a professional. I suppose it can depend on the circumstances; if you're getting paid primarily in beer, then no, but if you're making enough to pay the expenses of playing plus some left over each week to go toward putting food on the table, then it's a profitable endeavor. If you're working two nights a week, every week, year in and year out, and getting paid to do so, I would tend to think of you as a working musician. Regardless, I'm guessing that since you've been in the same band for such a long period of time, playing every weekend, that it's a pretty enjoyable experience. Congrats on your success!

cozmik_cowboy · « **Reply #2 on:** September 02, 2009, 07:57:51 AM »

What Dave said. There were times I wasn't gigging that much when it was my only income. You may have a side job, but you're a pro, dude.

Peter

bassilisk · « **Reply #3 on:** September 02, 2009, 09:05:18 AM »

Though I understand your take, I don't equate gig frequency with being a pro. In my mind a pro is someone who is devoted and dedicated to their profession. I'm a pro at my day job but I am an amateur bass player. I do it as a hobby. Having said that, I need my music the way I need air. It's what releases me.

Jeff Berlin did a great article way back on being an amateur vs pro, success notwithstanding. He compared it to being a doctor saying, would you want to be operated on by someone that only dabbles in it because it's fun and only does it on weekends, or would you want someone that spent years training to do it as their vocation to do the work? JimmyJ is a pro. Marcus Miller, Stanley Clarke, Jaco - you get my drift. Unfortunately I don't fall into that category.

Anyway, although I play regularly, I can't live off of it and quite honestly I wouldn't want to be put in that position. My day job allows me to gig, not the other way around. The gigs allow me to play with some great players who also happen to be really good friends, and to indulge myself with gear now and again. I'm very fortunate to be in this position and I am grateful.

So, how would you feel about being video'd?

Will

sonicus · « **Reply #4 on:** September 02, 2009, 09:58:43 AM »

Yeah, I am sure that any PRO will tell you that you have to pay your dues, and I aint talking just union dues brother ! _____ that would be the easy part.

sonicus · « **Reply #5 on:** September 02, 2009, 10:14:13 AM »

I personally look at every situation in a separate set of circumstances , that is how I think. I really do not follow a set mind set or policy for anything and that way I can evaluate anything with a fresh out look to a project. A blank canvas to paint on ! I DO NOT however encourage copy right infringement or worse, piracy, of an Artists work.

811952 · « **Reply #6 on:** September 02, 2009, 12:32:30 PM »

As long as they're not selling it, I don't care..

John

gyonnii · « **Reply #7 on:** September 02, 2009, 03:03:38 PM »

All I can say is I have seen first hand video issue, I did roadie for John Judge and once during a show with Edgar Winter and Rick derringer , I have seen Rick have a guy thrown out of a club and told the bouncers to take the tape out of an 8mm camcorder and bring it to him, he was pissed off, and then gave the audience a speech on pirate's who steal over the mic while destroying the tape in front of everyone while on stage, but if you did it today someone would try to sue you!
A month later after they went to Japan, I did not get to go, but John told me when he came back that Rick was selling Cassette Tapes of the performances at the shows to try and discourage these acts, I mean as far as myself goes, I love You Tube but you are talking a organization using your wears to put up publicly and it could make you or hang you out to dry and there is a lot of bootleg stuff on that site

bsee · « **Reply #8 on:** September 02, 2009, 08:56:07 PM »

To me, pro is more attitude, state of mind, and commitment to deliver than it is skill or training. It doesn't matter how much money you make or how many hours of practice you have in. If you show up at a gig and get yourself into a state where you can't put forth a quality performance, you're not a pro.

With regard to video, I don't care about people taping our shows. I wouldn't tape anyone else's show without permission. If, for some reason, I did tape someone else's show, I wouldn't publish it. In taping, I would also be unwilling to block any other attendee's view of the show.

Posting a 30 second or less clip seems to be accepted as part of a review or report, but full song or full show videos feel like copyright violation to me.

My opinion, anyway...

JimmyJ · « **Reply #9 on:** September 02, 2009, 09:58:12 PM »

The titles; pro, part-time, hobbyist, are meaningless. There are talented musicians everywhere, some of which only play on rare occasions...

Yeah, Will, you gotta wonder why somebody needs to video tape your whole gig? What if the guy subsequently has a party at his house and instead of hiring your band he just plays the video all night? That would be lame. And an old-school bootlegger would set up a table outside the club, sell copies of the video and keep all the loot. Not that this guy is thinking of doing either of these things, he might just be a super-fan, every band has them.

The Rick Derringer thing is a direct reaction to having been ripped off back in the day when people DID sell bootlegs. I don't think anybody is making money that way now, certainly not with their cellphone cameras. If you get to a gig and there are multiple broadcast quality cameras around, well, it's time to renegotiate.

Jimmy J

jos · « **Reply #10 on:** September 03, 2009, 12:17:19 AM »

If someone is videotaping or recording a concert and makes money with the material without the artists or record companies permission it’s of course always illegal.
If someone puts something on YouTube its most of the time a fan who want to share the experience with other fans. Its not always fair to the artist but on the other hand it’s a public performance and the artist gets paid for the gig so the artist should also make sure that the performance has some quality.
The great thing with YouTube is that you can check out musicians you like or musicians you have never heard about before. I would like to buy Allan Holdsworth DVD\s featuring Jimmy Johnson on bass but its not possible because there are non so in this case I would hope to find some on YouTube.

J-O-S

terryc · « **Reply #11 on:** September 03, 2009, 03:07:15 AM »

Pro v amateur??
Well Dave I do loads of gigs every year, have done since i picked up the guitar then the bass, my record if I can remember is over 200 in one year.
Difference..Pro = full time job whether you are good or moderate at it
Amateur = weekends and week nights.
The tag can be misleading as I know one excellent pro drummer who gigs with the weekenders..he doesn't mind at all, no airs & graces at all.

Now the video/copyright. Personally I prefer to down load a snippet of a song then go and buy the CD or DVD. It's only respectful to do that, same with PC/console games.
If YT shows me something I like then I go buy the full product.
Bootlegging,copying etc will never be properly policed as the general public have the attitude 'Well it is just a song/film/game' as they don't realise the amount of work that goes into producing such work from musicians, film makers and software games writers..they just see the final product..a piece of circular shiny plastic.
Copyright is a big issue that is very often overlooked

keith_h · « **Reply #12 on:** September 03, 2009, 05:16:19 AM »

I look at an amateur as someone who does not get paid. A weekend warrior getting paid I would call a semi-pro. In general I consider a pro someone who's primary income is from music.

As far as recording and photo's go I wouldn't have problems with a few snapshots that were for personal consumption. The same goes for video provided it is snippets of the performance (like my solo. LOL). I also suspect the guitar player in my band would have issues as a lot of the material is copyrighted by him and he sells it via CD and download.

Keith

David Houck · « **Reply #13 on:** September 03, 2009, 07:49:52 AM »

On the pro vrs amateur discussion, everyone has made excellent points, and it seems reasonable to conclude that these words have different meanings for different people, just like a lot of words do. So I'm thinking Jimmy has a great solution; that the tags don't really mean much.

john_judge · « **Reply #14 on:** September 03, 2009, 08:00:00 AM »

Just to ad more light here as far as the Rick Derringer thing, two weeks prior after a gig, Rick and myself and two other band members went out for breakfast after a gig and while sitting eating, a fan of Rick's came up to him and asked him if he would sign the inside of his CD cover that the fan handed him...it was Bootleg and Rick asked him where he got it from, the man said he bought it from a guy outside the club that night, Rick was furious and did not sign it and told the guy to go play it at his grand mothers house on her Victrola Lol! but Rick talked about it for weeks , so when the tape issue happened that was like the last straw for Rick and Jimmy J is exactly right it was pure bootleg issues back then, people making money.

Rick did manage to get a copy of one later and hated it more when he heard the recording quality sounded like it was done with a tin can and string into a cassette recorder from Radio Shack.

I can't seem to recall the exact video I seen on you tube, but during a Return to forever performance at one point Stanley and Chic are at center stage and as Chic looks out at the audience he is disturbed by what he sees a man video taping the concert he then nudges a sign to stanley to look at what's bothering him and you can see the look of frustration on both their faces.

I have to agree, nothing is more uncomfortable than seeing that happen while you are trying to play your best on the stage and you feel somewhat violated unless you are being taped for national T.V. and residuals are coming your way after.
One for the positive side is places like You Tube do allow us to catch some clip performances from players who should be and some who are better then Pro's that might have a better chance of being discovered thanks to their hard practice and You Tube...but on the other hand I have also seen some of the worse wannabe's ever who really think they can play.. so our mind's become a siphon for what we like and dislike as for me It doesn't matter as far as a clip goes but if I see a camera set up on a tripod with the red light on for more than 2 or 3 songs I am going to ask someone to say something to that individual because now I am not sure what his intentions are,

Bobby Torello, Johnny Winter's drummer(fabulous drummer) once told me he paid $ 5.00 walked into a blues club one night in Florida and saw a concert on a big screen of Johnny playing from a VHS machine with himself playing the drums that was almost and hour long while people watched and drank. He was in shock.