Need Help With Bass Rig

[rebelchile]

Hi, I have an Essence 4 string with Europa electronics and have been using a Mackie 1400I power amp for some years now, and it died on me this weekend. I am playing through an Eden 410xlt @ 700 watts rms and an Eden 118xlt cab @ 500 watts rms with an Alembic F-2B stereo Preamp and a DBX 160A compressor limiter. I used a QSC PLX3602 for the show Saturday night in place of my wasted Mackie 1400I and the QSC was undoubtedly the best sounding power amp I have used YET!!!
 Which QSC amp do you guys suggest for my setup, as sometimes I only run the 410xlt cab, and if the room is large enough I run the 118xlt together with the 410?? Thanks

[2400wattman]

Just source out another 3602 and be done with it. It obviuosly delivered what you liked and quite frankly being short on power sucks when you are trying to drive two cabs. The amp will be fine driving one cab just adjust the attenuators accordingly.  
Get down!!!

[charles_holmes]

I agree with wattman. In addition, it sounds as though you have answered your own questions....  
 
 and the QSC was undoubtedly the best sounding power amp I have used YET!!  
 
I use the  QSC 2450 & I'm guessing just by the number of the QSC that you mentioned, it may be superior to mine, but I may be wrong.

[crgaston]

Hi Greg!
 
Are both your Edens 8 ohms?
 
Really, a 2402 would probably do it with a 4-string and a compressor, but look at Ebay for a 3002 or 3402 too. These are slightly older versions of the 2502, 3102, and 3602.  The previous generation PLX amps are just as good as the new ones (very slightly lower wattage ratings, DIP switches for configuration instead of bigger, more easily adjustable ones on the newer ones) and an awesome bargain now that the PLX2's are out.  I picked up a 3402 for 550 last year and love it.  
 
Check the classifieds here.  Danno had a 2402 for sale a while back... he might still have it.  
 
Also, an 1804 might suit you as well.  It lacks the protection circiutry (but you'd get that from your DBX), highpass filter (not as important on a 4) a parallel input (buy a Y-cable) and the ability to run at 2 ohms, but it's much shallower and 8 pounds lighter.  You could make a handy little rig with that amp.
 
A regular PLX amp will fit in a Gator Shallow rack just fine if you unplug the speaker cables from the back.
 
Also, I'm curious as to what you're doing for a DI?
 
Good luck!
 
Charles
 
(Message edited by crgaston on August 17, 2010)

[rebelchile]

Thanks for the input, charles holmes I am researching QSC 2450's as we speak. They are the big favorite around here with sound techs they love'm for monitors, and when you bridge one of them, @ 4 ohm load you've got plenty. The 3402 is a HOSS of a power amp, it's almost over-kill. Although, as crgaston said, if I can get a good deal on one of the older series, at the same power that would be the ticket.
 
  Yes, both of my cabs are 8 ohms each, but as I said, I can only use the 18 in a much larger room. So the 410xlt is the most used combination by far. So I guess it's between the 2450 or an earlier series of the 3000's.
 
  Thing is....with the 3000's it's a whole lot easier to blow speakers, especially using the 1 cabinet setup. DECISIONS....DECISIONS....
 
  Also, all of my hardware is rack mounted, and to crgaston.....at the risk of sounding stupid...what is DI? direct input?  
 
  Thanks again so much, and if Danno reads this, do you still have the 2402 crgaston is speaking of?? and what are the specs on it???

[crgaston]

OK, I lied... Danno has a 1602.  
 
Greg, generally speaking, power doesn't blow speakers...clipping does.  That 700 watt Eden will soak up everything you can throw at it so long as you don't clip the power amp. A good rule of thumb is to get a power amp that makes 1.5-2x the power rating of your cabinets.
 
 Where a high-wattage amp is an advantage is on the transients...when you throw down a 3-string E chord to finish a song or hit a note extra-hard, the big amp will have the headroom so that it can take the sudden increase in signal without clipping.  
 
Think of it like this... say your normal stage volume is like a guy loading 50 pound bags onto a truck.  When a 100 pound bag shows up, a weaker guy will have to struggle with it (clipping), but a stronger guy will still be able to toss it on the truck no problem.
 
But you have another advantage... your compressor.  You can set your compressor so that it limits the amount of signal going to the amp so it will never clip no matter how hard you hit it.  This will allow you to increase your average volume without worrying that you'll overload the amp when you really play hard.  
 
The 2450 is a much larger, heavier amp than any of the PLX series amps because it has an old-school iron transformer.  Lots of people (myself included) think iron transpormer amps sound better than the lightweight amps.  This is because the iron transformers store energy so that it can be released when you need it, rather than making it on the spot like the lightweight amps do.  This feature acts to increase headroom as well, making a lower-powered iron-transformer amp equivalent, tone and headroom wise, to a higher powered modern lightweight amp. They just have a lot more punch than the lightweight amps do.
 
 
If you don't mind a 40-50 pound amp, take a look at the old Crest Pro 6001 or 7001, or a Crown K2.  They are reasonably affordable and I promise you they will make you think that the 3602 sounds weak.  Why don't I use one?  The weight and size. Period.  If I were to ever get a house gig where I didn't have to move the amp, I'd get one in a heartbeat.
 
Yes, DI = Direct Input.  It's how you send your signal to the front-of house console.
 
Lastly, I would point out that you don't need to bridge the amp if you are using a high powered one like the PLX 3602.  Just use one channel for each speaker.  You can set them up so that the one output from your F2B goes equally to both amp channels.  You could just use one channel when you're running your 4x10, and both when you add your 18.

[edwin]

I think Charles is right, a 2402 should be fine and anything above is icing on the cake. However, I've been using a Crest CA9 and loving it. The only downside is that it's just shy of 60lbs. I have found that it seems to provide a more solid low end than the QSCs I've used in the past.
 
Edwin

[2400wattman]

I will agree with Edwin and Charles about the Crest stuff. I had a CA-6 and sold since my F1-X was clipping the input section on the amp. Otherwise those are stout bastards and can deliver the goods. I have recently discovered that I actually was'nt clipping the amp but the amp's signal led's showed I was near 10-15db of clipping. I would love to have that amp back but the Crown K2 I sold it for is lighter and just as stout.  
I would still look for something with a higher power rating for my reasons above. You won't regret it.

[rebelchile]

Hey crgaston, no problem on Danno's 1602...I found it in the classifieds. I will check out the Crown's and the Crest's, I am interested in the QSC 2450's..the price is right but I am a little concerned with the made in China sticker on the back...although they have great reviews all over the internet.
 
  I too like the old style heavy transformers, and, (but), on the other hand, 40-50lbs of weight added to the rack is still a pain in the back ;-)  
 
  I run my bass into a direct box, and from the direct box to the snake, and then on out to the console. From the direct box out jack I run to my rack, the preamp and then into the compressor, and from the compressor into the power amp, then of coarse to the cab(s).
 
  I'll have to find a special deal, and save some serious bucks to do a 3000 series power amp. One of those, or a Crown is really what I want. I never really was satisfied with the Mackie, it just always lacked the extra balls.  
 
  And the wierd thing about it that's confusing my decision is, the Mackie and the QSC 2450 are not that much different in specs, (power). I haven't played through a 2450, does anyone know if the lows are as pronounced with that model as they are with the QSC PLX3000 series??? or the Crown and Crest series in the same power parameters???
 
  And as far as running in bridge mode, although I ran my rig bridged for quite sometime, after I experienced the extra power and muscle from the last show @ 750 watts per channel (unbridged), my rig seemed to my ear tighter and much more efficient a much better tone, when I played at different positions from the front pickup to the rear, and sounded heavy, with low end punch when I dug into my DR Highbeams, and then I could change position and attack and make it smooth and warm. I love that power, man I do love it....

[bigredbass]

BIG power is its own reward.  Everything all have said above is true.  Any half-ass amp will toot along, but when you dig in, the big amps will have no problem keeping up; past playing in your living room, 'just-enough-amp' is the LAST place you want to be.  Remember, you're pushing bass, not miking a flute!
 
If that big QSC you used after the Mackie went South was that fine, GET one.  From my own experience, thinking you'll get the same tone a little cheaper and 'I probably don't need that much amp' smaller will not serve you well.
 
J o e y

[bassilisk]

I've been using a PLX2402 for some years now and I am totally satisfied with it. Just an ass kicking amp all around. Plus their Customer Sevice is stellar. Example - when I got mine I bought their bracket that stabilizes the back of the amp in the case. 2 weeks - no bracket. I email and (I believe her name was Suzy) says no problem, mails out another one which I get in 4 days.
 
Meanwhile, my mailman finds an envelope down the block that's been sitting in the hall for some time. He looks, recognizes my name and brings it over. It was the first set, mis-addressed!  
 
I sent them back on my own dime.

[smokinbear]

Don't count out Crown! I use an older used macrotech 2402 and aside from the weight it has headroom and power for days! I run 2 ev dmx3500??? 15's rated at 500 watts each plus a 8x10 all at 2 or 4 ohms. And yes the DBX160a is very helpful also. Got my crown off the web for $700.00. :-) Still serviceable if needed locally....Bear

[rebelchile]

I agree with you guys 1000%....I don't give a crap what the general public says, only a true bass player understands when it sounds AND feels right..
 
  One of my sound tech friends told me something as well. When you have enough power to push each cabinet without bridging, plugging into both channels on the pwr amp. If something happens to one of the channels in the amp, you still have a good channel that has enough non bridged power to run 1 cabinet with no problems.
 
  I have made up my mind.....I'm going for the Big Power like big red bass said. I think that all, and all, its a safety net as well as efficiency on the power end. And I have seen the times, that I wished I had more power, the Mackie just didn't have the extra balls when I was in a 2 guitar, and Big keyboard rig situation.....They were LOUD players.....
 
  Thanks to all, for the excellent advice...greg

[bassman10096]

I use a 2402 in the same general way you are talking about.  It sounds great, always works fine - can't say enough good for the model.  I've never come close to using its full power - indoor or outdoor.  Plus it's under 20 lb and (since it's the older series and discontinued) a real bargain.  A 3002 or 3602 would be nice, but would only give you more margin of power you wouldn't use.

[bigredbass]

I would respectfully disagree.  IF I were building a stage rig again, short of a 5000w per side monster, for me there is no margin of power I wouldn't use.  Of course, how much weight, etc., you want to drag around is a personal choice.  But I've been drowned out by a geek with a Marshall half-stack for the last time.  Plus let me play something with lots of low D's and C's, and I can tell RIGHT NOW if that margin of power was enough.  I was never fortunate enough to play smart stages with proper PA's, I always had to bring my own bulldozer, so to speak.  So I'm soooo done with 'just enough amp'.
 
There . . . . I feel better now.  Excuse me, fellas.
 
J o e y