Another Dilution of quality!

[white_cloud]

Hi Alan,
 
Sorry that you thought that I thought you were infering that, if you know what I mean lol
 
Have to agree with your assesment of current US made Fenders. The recent youtube post of their brand of instruments being rolled off the line was particularly disturbing to me! Having said that to many young dudes trying to start a band it is a relief!
 
I suppose that quality and integrity is becoming something that is unfashionable - but not to all. That is where the hope is. With companies like Alembic there is always light at the end of the tunnel.
 
John.

[georgie_boy]

I still rate my Cort Curbows guys!
27 frets, Bartolini MK1 P/u with Bartolini MK2 active electronics--and she was built in Korea
 
Great basses for the buck
 
Just my 0.02
Have to agree with John though!!!
 
 
G

[811952]

My Lakland Skyline 5-string was built in Korea, then setup at the Lakland shop in Chicago.  It has the lowest playable action of any bass I've ever owned, and is really well-crafted.  Sure it came out of a factory in Korea, but they built it really well.  Sure I would have bought a USA Lakland if I had that kind of $$$, but this one was in the $700 range.  And have I mentioned that it plays like a dream?
 
So I guess it's the WalMart scenario, where I chose having it *now* instead of spending the money here at home in the USA.  I generally try to buy locally made products, then regional and USA made, but sometimes it just makes economic sense (on a small *me* level) to simply buy the product which offers the most bang for the buck.
 
What Alembic and other custom builders offer that the Korean shops don't, is the ability to have the instrument made exactly the way you prefer.  While a fine instrument, there was never a chance that the factory that built my Lakland would have ever gone to the trouble to position the woods for best visual effect, or to make certain that the neck wood had perfect grain..
 
While on vacation, I was derided at an intersection about riding a Jap bike by a guy in a Dodge minivan that was covered in BUY AMERICAN stickers.  I continued straight, while he made the turn into a WalMart...  
 
John

[white_cloud]

This is the thing,
 
I bet a lot of members here own, or have owned, Korean made basses - and pound for pound (or buck for buck) most of them will be really good. Im treading thin ice a little because I understand the motives of folks going down that route - I really do.  
 
George, Cort Curbows are great value for money - I love Bartolini pickups (My Jeff Berlin Bass, built in Czech republic incidentally,  is fitted with them and they sound sweet!) but the fact that Corts are built in Korea does not detract from their name as a top luthier (because they arent) Its just not such a big deal really to Cort fans!
 
John, Lakland make great basses but purists, rightly or wrongly, would still PREFER a non Korean model if given the choice - but it doesnt make the Korean model bad if you know what I mean!
 
Zon are (were) regarded here in the UK as a top US made HIGH quality bass. The fact that certain models are now made in Korea Dilutes that reputation somewhat with purists Im sure.  
 
If you invest thousands of dollars in a US Zon bass and are up on stage doing your thing would you like to think that some members of the audience are sitting looking at your bass saying mmm nice, but is it a Korean model or a good one??  
 
It spoils the exclusivity somewhat, and at the end of the day no body could do that if you were playing your Alembic could they? (unless you were playing your Fernandes FAB hee hee!!)
 
John.

[cozmik_cowboy]

Sorry, I misspoke above: Gibson does currently make a '54 Les Paul reiss - Musician's Friend price just over $3K.
 
Peter

[mike1762]

I think the debate here is price vs quality vs value: value being the balance between price and quality.  I bought my Alembics because I am at a point in my life that I could and I appreciated their superb quality.  That being said, I did buy them used.  The cheapskate in me will not allow me to pull the trigger on a new build.  My best VALUE instruments are my used Alembics, a MIK Schecter C1 Classic, and a MIM Strat.

[elwoodblue]

I agree with you about the MIM strats...I have one that is fantastic, my guitarist swears by his and will never part with it...they are all a little different so it's good to A/B a few if you have the chance.

[0vid]

The real issue is not that Far Eastern manufacture is substandard, there are many examples that will prove this wrong. Ken Smith Pickups are OEMed by Kent Armstrong in Korea and have been for years, you don't hear anyone complaining about them.  
 
The specification of lower quality is the issue here. Often a manufacturer will specify lower grade components, less stringent QC. It has nothing to do with the geography of manufacture.
 
E.g. Fender MIM is purposely specified at lower detail, lower quality components,  to meet a price point. It has nothing to do with Mexico, or the fact that Fender US are made in USA by many immigrant Mexicans. The Conklins, MTDs or Curbows that were made in Korea were spec'ed higher and QC'ed higher than some other Korean factory output. It is the specification point, and business aim towards max profit that drives it.  
 
BC Rich made all sorts of instruments ad you can look at the varying specifications of the handmade ones vs the factory ones to meet the demand of metalheads. FYI, the original BC Rich handmade ones in the early years were handcarved by Mexican master carvers.

[white_cloud]

Original handmade BC Rich guitars and axes were awesome - totally agree!
 
A master craftsman is a master craftsman no matter his place of birth in my opinion. Its just there arent many true master craftsmen being trained anywhere nowadays! Why bother when you can program a big old CNC router to carve your necks at ten to the dozen!
 
John.

[0vid]

You may wish to note that some companies have their manufacturing completely offshore and therefore do not have the Made in the USA issue.
For those who still have manufacturing in the USA, the strategy is usually to have offshore manufacturing produce parts for local assembly, or complete items - and in the latter case of complete items, in our case complete instruments, they usually specify something less than what they locally manufacture.  
 
E.g.MTD's offshore products are lower spec and lower QC to USA models, and are not meant to compete with local production. On the other hand PJB products, Phil Jones Amps, are completely made in China. Many of Mackie products are also made in China; as is much of the condensor microphones in the market at the moment. Even Manley makes mics in China.  
 
Lakland and as you note, Zon's offshore production, is likely to be different from their local production. This is possible as the offshore production will be at a lower price point and will meet the demand for the brand or association with the brand.  
 
Many years ago, SD Curlee attempted to manufacture offshore as well as manufacture in the US at the same time. Their problem was that they never differentiated their US product from the offshore product by much, and their brand pretty much died as they did not build up enough of a reputation for their US product, to introduce an offshore product at a much lower price point. There was virtually no difference between the two, they used the same pickups etc.
 
When Fender contracted FujiGen Gakki to build Fender Japan, they got a kick up the behind to match up in term of their US production. You must know that Fender has legally stopped Ishibashi exporting Fender Japan products. In many ways, they are still making a great product that has little if any difference to what the US factory or custom shop can turn out, at a much lower price point. No company wants that and so they usually make a point of making a lower spec instrument offshore.  
 
So I really don't see a dilution in quality at all when the spec at point of manufacture is already intended to be lower than their best capability.

[white_cloud]

A good point well made - however,
 
By assosiating with a product that is a lower spec than what you are actually capable of producing you are setting a dangerous precedent for your company name - essentially diluting the overall quality and integrity of the name of your brand. The exclusivity is lost, and that is a big deal for a high end luthier/builder such as Zon.
 
Sure, Alembic products span all sorts of price brackets - but the same basic level of craftsmanship and pride of product exists!
 
For example would you be happy to buy a brand new $1000 korean factory built Alembic Essence that fell short on the quality of a US handmade model - or would you rather save up your cash and eventually have the real thing?
 
If (god help us) Alembic went down the same business route as the likes of Zon what would be the overall effect on the Alembic brand?
 
John.

[0vid]

Budget models have been around for years, it  is not going to stop. It is a business practice based on marketing & sales opportunities. It doesn't seem to have hurt anyone's desire to have top of the line spec  Fender, Conklin, MTD, PRS, Drumworkshop, etc etc etc nor does it seem to have affected their profits. Ernie Ball did a turnaround and decided to pull the plug on their budget line, as did G&L. You can be sure it was not due to letters about loyalty to US made insturments. What are the fans going to do? Burn their US made instruments in protest against budget offshore models? No. They bought the Sub Bass, the OLPs and the G&L Tributes.  
 
Mercedes Benz and BMW also make budget models. Some companies disassociate their main brand by using a different name, e.g. Toyota created their luxury marque, Lexus. Fender do it donwscale with Squier. Marshall did downscale with Park. It is a marketing decision, usually made on the basis of pecuniary judgement. I doubt emotion and brand loyalty has anything to do with it, particularly if sales are final and not continuous.  
 
FYI, I have a Korean made Conklin Groove tools.  It cost me $700USD. It is a very good instrument, and amongst the 20 odd basses I have it has the best low B. FYI, it is the real thing, it is a Conklin designed bass. Will I buy a handmade Conklin? If one comes my way and is what I am looking for in touch and tone, yes. I don't think about brand loyalty, and you can be sure the brand is NOT thinking about my loyalty or lack thereof when they make a business decision. Business decisions are made on a forecast of possible income, not on the emotions of previous customers.

[white_cloud]

But it is your emotional attachment to your korean built Conklin groove that has driven your response to this subject - therefore emotions DO come in to it!
 
My emotional reaction to Zon is this circumstance is that I no longer regard them as one of the very top producers of exclusively high end luthier built bass guitars!
 
I value integrity and it is my choice to feel that way.  
 
I doubt any member of this forum could honestly, hand on heart, say that if Alembic opened a korean plant producing Alembic designed basses identical to the US models at a fraction of the price that they would not emotionally feel that the brand had been devalued in exclusivity, integrity and spirit!
 
Therefore the same applies, in my opinion to Zon, who have now compromised their brand name by detracting from their high end US made product!
 
John.

[eligilam]

I have an Ibanez fretless Soundgear SR400 made in Korea...so it's a double asian bass whammy:  Japanese company farming out to Korea.
 
However, the thing simply sings, and is one of my most playable basses.  Even with the cheapo crap stock PJ electronics!
 
Still saving for a fretless Series, though.

[georgie_boy]

John-----------I've got to stick with you on this one, even though I use other instruments
 
Maybe it's just a sign of old age
 
MFA
What I find is---If the instrument is well built--- like my Corts, then you have a good playing instrument---------------fin de l'histoire.
Load her with Barts or whatever, and you end up with a great instrument for a fraction of the bucks!!!??
 
 
Not a 76 Series 1 though