Author Topic: Another Dilution of quality!  (Read 870 times)

white_cloud

  • Guest
Another Dilution of quality!
« on: July 10, 2008, 07:18:20 AM »
Sigh...I have just found out that ZON have now a Korean plant producing basses ( if this is old news I apologise - Im a bit out of the loop these days! ) Another great name goes down the mass produced far eastern route and dilutes the rep of their US made models in my opinion! You simply cant hold the rarified position as a top end luthier when a far eastern facory, on your instruction, is producing models that look the same.
 
Its the exact same thing with the likes of Warwick for example. For me a lot of the appeal of a high end Warwick was lost when I saw dozens of young kids everywhere playing ROCK BASSES that cost a fraction of the price of the good models but looked virtually the same! Same goes for Spector and numerous other top makes ( I could be here all day naming them )that decided that they wanted to reach a much wider audience.  
 
Western society is on a freefall now in a sense. Quantity over quality is the mantra. Corporations would like nothing better than to treat us ALL like battery fed chickens at their mercy- call it the Matrix effect! I guess the reason Im perturbed is that I always regarded Zon basses highly and found them to be quite elusive - Im sure that will change now. Anyway, I know the drill well- Zon will, of course, say that their Korean bass is a great first step on the ladder to buying a US top level model at a later time..it gives the kids a real opportunity to play a Zon sooner rather than later etc, but for me that is flawed. If you cut the price you cut the quality - and it removes the most vital ingredient of wanting to own a top quality bass.. Exclusivity!
 
This is what makes Alembic so very special. An Alembic is a no compromise option. Something truly to aim for - the very highest of quality and integrity! I would love to hear your opinions Alembicans!
 
P.S. Before any club members with Korean Zon basses jump on me and tell me how good they are ( which Im actually sure they are for the money by the way ) for me its purely a question of pedigree!
 
John.

funkyjazzjunky

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1087
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #1 on: July 10, 2008, 01:11:02 PM »
John,
I agree with you 100%.  I love Carvin, Peavey and most especially Alembic because they make very good products (Carvin & Peavey) and great (Alembic) products with devoted American laborers.  
I want a bass the maker and builders are proud of.  (I admire Fodera as well but I have never owned one).
I do not want an instrument whose woods are chosen because they cost less.

elwoodblue

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2784
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #2 on: July 10, 2008, 01:53:31 PM »
I have one tribute G&L...swimming pool pickup cavity
,cheap and potted fretwire,epoxy filled neck pocket,
body 'wood'(?) that is as heavy as lead,
...just the opposite of the details that make my 80's G&L's some of the best bolt ons on the planet.
 
...I guess if they build crappy instruments that always makes one yearn for better.
 
It makes one wonder how greed can cloud judgement and pride.
 
believe me ...you couldn't pay me to eat two taco's that cost only 99 cents

dnburgess

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 674
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #3 on: July 10, 2008, 04:26:04 PM »
Each instrument should be judged on its merits. Some makers have not helped their brands with their Asian manufacturing strategies. But there are some US brands that have done it very well.
 
One that comes to mind is MTD. Their Kingston models are great value for money and do capture some of the MTD vibe. In Australian terms the Kingstons are between $1000 and $1500 whereas US MTDs start at around $5000. So there are a lot of young or beginning players that can afford a taste of MTD - that might subsequently graduate to a custom US model. US MTDs still have about a 12 month waiting list - and Mike is running a the maximum level of production with which he feels comfortable.

dannobasso

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2038
    • BLAK29
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #4 on: July 10, 2008, 06:42:27 PM »
I am a firm supporter of American made products. I do have a problem with Gibson and Fender for the prices of their mostly machine made, mass produced instruments. I do own an American Strat, LP Classic so I did pay the asking prices. That being said the quality of my Japan Strat and Korean ESP EC 1000 Deluxe, and Korean Fender Esquire Scorpions and GT is great. The fit and finish is exceptional. (But My Hamer Chaperelle 12 is a pain in the tail!)
I bought some of the instruments not thinking about where they were made. I just wanted them at the time (and sometimes the ebay listing leaves some info out, no more late night bidding!)  
Alembic is a very rare company that continues to compel me to purchase their products. A huge part of it is that they are making it for me. to my specific tastes. There are other high end makers but they never struck a chord with me. I wanted a Fodera, but they kinda blew me off and never got back when I was inquiring about a custom bass. There were also no discussions about price other than list at the time.  
But we the obsessive happy few are not the average instrument buyer. Most folks are pleased as punch with the run of the mill as opposed to the jewel in the crown. We here demand and expect more than the average bear. Now to figure out how to pay for my next custom?

ajdover

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1046
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #5 on: July 10, 2008, 07:54:54 PM »
Before I retired, I spent about 18 months in Korea between 2004 and 2007.  A few observations if I may.
 
Korea is not what many might think it is, e.g., somewhat backward, third world, etc.  I'm not suggesting that anyone actually thinks that, but I know from my travels that some may harbor that perception.  Nothing could be further from the truth.
 
Fifty five years ago, the Republic of Korea was a far different place.  There was little industry, and many of the modern things at the time that developed nations had just didn't exist there.  There were no auto plants, no mass communications to a large degree, no highways.  The change since then has been astonishing.  From the ashes of a horrible civil war, the ROK has taken a very prominent place amongst the nations of the world.
 
Its economy is the 11th largest in the world and growing.  It is one of the largest producers of semi conductors in the world.  It's cars are rapidly catching the Japanese in quality.  It is a major producer of electronics (if you don't believe me, go to your local Best Buy or Circuit City - the amount of LG, Samsung, etc. products will astound you).  It has the best airport (Incheon) I've ever been in - and I've been through Frankfurt, Gatwick, Heathrow, Dubai, Bahrain, Puerto Rico, and numerous places in the states.  It's highway system rivals ours, and their people are proud of their country and it shows.
 
As far as the things they produce go, suffice to say they are more than capable of producing high quality products.  They are also capable of producing less than high quality products, just as we are.  In my experience though, most of what they make is of equal quality to most of the things produced here (Alembics excepted - nothing equals them in my opinion).  I'd have no hesitation buying a Korean made product (my past two cellphones have been a Samsung and LG respectively).
 
It's not a castatrophic thing if Zon, Ovation, Fender, Gibson, etc. make things in Korea.  Nor is it a catastrophic thing if Koreans make things in the U.S.  This is the global economy these days.
 
This being said, like Danno, I support U.S. businesses simply because I want the jobs, money, etc. they produce to stay here in the states.  I support them at every opportunity.  However, if they make a substandard product (say, like McDonald's) my money goes elsewhere.  
 
 White Cloud is right IMHO that most Americans want quantity over quality.  I'd go a step further and add that most Americans IME want mediocrity over excellence.  They don't want, for example, good food made with love by someone who cares.  The good 'ol gut busting $10 gut busting buffet of culinary horrors is good enough for them.  Personally, I'd rather pay someone to make me a meal with care than to go to the drive through where some pimply faced kid whose only concern is when he's getting off is the order of the day.
 
As far as cutting price - cutting quality, I'd submit this.  When I was in NYC in October of last year, I went to the Sadowsky shop in Brooklyn.  I played a bunch of great basses, but what really caught my attention was a hybrid P/J bass.  It has a Jazz like neck, with a P body, and P/J pickups.  It was amazing - it played incredibly well.  I played a number of other instruments, to include the NYC Vintage 4 Jazz that I eventually bought.  However, I was surprised to learn that the hybrid I played was a Metro model, made in Tokyo, Japan.  It was every bit as good and in some respects better than the NYC I have now.  I'm looking for a hybrid Metro as my next Sadowsky purchase.  
 
As long as a company does good quality control, stuff produced overseas shouldn't be an issue.  It's when that goes out the window that problems ensue IMHO and IME.
 
Alan

elwoodblue

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2784
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #6 on: July 10, 2008, 08:51:03 PM »
well said Alan.
 
My impression is that there is a portion of the american population that isn't getting that good food and substandard thoughts follow.  
  Such as designing a cheaper product and finding an economy in this world that might support that type of industry.
   
   Take Gibson for example, instead of pushing the envelope, the fear that the matsumoku products might equal or surpass the quality of the 70's gibbies...which is sporatic...they started lawsuits.
 Thanks for the enlightening words,  
 
...as Hendrix said about the people on this planet-we're only families away...

bsee

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 2658
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #7 on: July 10, 2008, 11:54:07 PM »
I have had a couple USA Zon basses that I love.  They are quality instruments, but every time I have tried to contact the company, the customer service has been pretty poor.  I guess doing one thing right doesn't mean that they can do it all at the highest level all of the time.  I'd still love to get my hands on a nice VB-4 as a gig backup if anyone knows of one laying about, though.  
 
The guitar player with whom I regularly play has a few American Strats and a very nice LP Custom.  His overall favorite guitar, though, is a Japanese reissue Strat model.
 
Alan, I wouldn't agree that most Americans want mediocrity over excellence.  I would rather say that many people will accept mediocrity rather than pay the full price for excellence.  If all basses were sold at the same price, I bet the majority of the people out there would be playing Alembic, Zon, and other high-end instruments, not cheap Fender copies from Korea.  
 
I had dinner a few hours ago at the French Culinary Institute in NYC.  If it could be had for the price of McDonalds, and in a similar amount of time, I would eat there every night of the week.  Yes, people have different priorities.  Some are willing to sit around for half an hour waiting for a beautiful meal to be prepared and can budget two hours for dinner.  Others would just like to be done eating in ten minutes so they can get back to the other passions in their lives.

glocke

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1258
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #8 on: July 11, 2008, 04:05:03 AM »
Is it a desire of the company to cut costs by manufacturing overseas, or is it a way to get their instruments into the hands of people who otherwise couldnt afford them?  
 
I am assuming most of us here have well paying jobs, and the majority of us here can probably afford any instrument we want.
 
Thats not the case for everyone though.  To some guy make 20k or 30k a year, that overseas made Zon bass could be his dream bass.  
 
 .

jacko

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 4068
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #9 on: July 11, 2008, 04:36:33 AM »
I thought this thread was going to be about the rumour that Yes are auditioning for a new singer in the wake of Jon Anderson's recent respiratiry attack and the cancellation of their 2008 40th anniversary tour ;-)
 
Graeme

ajdover

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1046
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #10 on: July 11, 2008, 06:23:30 AM »
Bob,
 
      You worded it better than I ever could.  You're right, most Americans (IMHO) accept mediocrity.  And that's the problem.  It brings to mind a saying a band instructor I had in high school used to use to motivate us.  It was: if you can afford a Cadillac, why not drive one?  His point was if you can make something the very best it can be, or do something as perfectly as you possibly can, why not aspire to that?  In essence he was saying that perfection was always the goal but was unattainable.  However, the pursuit of it wasn't, and that was the idea behind his saying.  Pursuing perfection, in his mind (and mine, BTW) led to excellence and that should be what drives folks.  It's a saying I've used often in my life and it's served me well.  Unfortunately, too many of the people I know not only don't want to pursue excellence in either their personal or professional lives, they're perfectly content with mediocrity.  I'm not being judgmental here, merely noting what to me is a sad occurrence that happens all too often I think.  
 
Excellence doesn't have to be expensive.  It only takes someone who cares about what they're doing to make it the best it can possibly be.  Some of the best meals I've eaten were on the street in Korea and elsewhere, and they didn't break the bank.  They were usually made by someone who's been doing the same thing, consistently, for years with care and love in most cases.  And ultimately, the best meals I've ever had were in either my or someone else's home.
 
All basses aren't sold at the same price because excellence in that line of product doesn't, in fact, come cheap IME.  Price of materials, labor, production methods, etc. all come into play.  
 
In terms of food, it is no different.  You get out of it what you put into it labor and material-wise.  For example, Kobe beef or grass-fed beef will taste vastly different to beef raised in giant feedlots where they're fed grain.  Same goes for the cook preparing it - if you order medium rare and he can't tell the difference between that and well done, the quality of the ingredient will be ruined by overcooking in most cases.  
 
I had lunch at the FCI in October of last year (best pate de compagne I've ever had).  I also toured the facilities (I was researching cooking schools; I ultimately decided against going there because I just didn't want to live in NYC for any period of time).  What I found were a bunch of folks who deeply cared about what they're doing.  At McDonald's, the vast majority of them don't and it shows (e.g., poor service, burgers that don't look like anything in their advertisements, etc.).  At least that's been my experience, and that's why I haven't eaten at one in years.
 
I agree that not everyone can budget the time to have a meal like the one you had at FCI.  That doesn't mean they can't eat well, though, and relatively quickly.  It doesn't have to be fancy, just good - think a simple meatloaf, mashed potatoes properly made, etc. And most importantly, shared with people you care about.  Food, to me at least, isn't just about sustenance.  It's the experience.  I also feel that the best thing one can do to show someone that one really cares about them is to feed them and feed them as well as one can.  When I cook for folks, I don't want them leaving the table saying, well, that was good.  I want them to say life is good.
 
I'd recommend a book, if you're so inclined -Fast Food My Way by Jacques Pepin, ironically one of the deans at FCI and a culinary hero of mine.  He shows how one can take some simple ingredients and put together great dishes that take little time to prepare at home, often using pantry staple items.  Not everything he has in the book can be created quickly (the codfish brandade, for example, requires soaking the baccalao or salted codfish in several changes of water for 8 or so hours), but most of it can.
And as you note, folks can then get back to the other passions in their lives.
 
Great points, BTW, and some things I didn't think about.
 
Alan

lbpesq

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 10683
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #11 on: July 11, 2008, 06:50:57 AM »
My made-in-Japan Daions are the finest mass-produced guitars I've ever run across.  
 
As a capitalist society matures, the quality of almost everything will go down as the essential purpose of almost everything is to make money, not art.  Alembic is among the last of the old-time American craftsmen that take pride in their product.  Alembic is also owned by a family, not  an amorphous corporation.  Coincidence?  I think not.  That's why Alembic rules!
 
Bill, tgo

cozmik_cowboy

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 7341
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #12 on: July 11, 2008, 08:04:15 AM »
When I cook for folks, I don't want them leaving the table saying, 'well, that was good.' I want them to say 'life is good.'  
Beautifully put, Alan, and my feelings exactly!  
 
   As to instrument quality, my problem isn't with the quality of Asian guitars - they are definitely not what they were when I was young & Made in Japan was a punchline, & I have a MIK Epiphone Sheraton that I absolutely love.  My problem is with the quality, and more precisely the quality:price ratio, of most MIA instruments.  
   I have a friend who just bought 2 Les Pauls from 2 different Chinese factories.  At least 1 of these is where Gibson currently makes Epiphones.  This guy is a superb multi-instrumentalist who has been playing professionally for over 30 years.  He currently owns at least 1 early-70s LP Custom, and has had several others in the decades I've known him; he knows instruments.    
He wanted another LPC, and went around to various stores trying them - they were nowhere near comparable to his old ones, and cost over $3K.  He ordered a LPC from a website in China - an Epiphone with a Gibson headstock, stamped Made in USA - $350 with case & shipping.  He says the genuine Nashville item is worth twice that, but not ten times that.  He got a '54 LP reissue from another Chinese website - says it's a good guitar, and when he's done some fretwork, it'll be a great guitar (plus it's transparent amber instead of the period-correct goldtop, which, I'm sorry, is ugly).  
   So, his choices were 1) MIA Gibson Les Paul Custom: $3400 + shipping, 2) MIC Epiphone Les Paul Custom, slightly, but only slightly, lower quality: $550 + case & shipping, or 3) MIC Epiphone Les Paul Custom with Gibson headstock, $350 w/case & shipping.  With the '54, Gibson doesn't make one, so the choices are 1) MIC, $350 w/case & shipping or 2) a real '54 from George Gruhn, $42.5K + a drive to Nashville (no way I'd ship that!)  
   The biggest problem I see here is not that you can buy a counterfeit Gibson, but that the quality of the real deal is so low that a pro player would choose the fake (and I feel it incumbent upon me to point out that he's buying these to gig with, not to sell as MIA).    
The same holds true for Fender; play a set of Strats - MIA, MIM, MIJ, & MIK - and then tell me why I would pay $1K+ for a MIA instrument whose playability is further from the early-60s benchmark Fenders than the out-sourced examples are at a fraction of the cost. (And as a true lover of early-60s Fenders, Bill, I'll renew my offer to double your money on the '61 ).  
   To get back to the original post, I've never laid hands on a Zon, MIA or MIK, so I can't speak to them, but IME the problem with at least the legendary American makers going overseas is not the quality of the out-sourced pieces, but that it points up just how over-priced their domestic product is, how far their quality has declined, and how much they're coasting on reputation and the confidence that most people won't know the difference.  
 
Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

white_cloud

  • Guest
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #13 on: July 11, 2008, 09:11:31 AM »
Some very interesting points of view here folks, and thats all good!
 
One little point that I think I should clarify is that Im actually a fan of Japanese craftsmanship! For example I have played Japanese built vintage Squire Jazz basses that absolutely kicked the butt of any recent ( and some vintage )US made Jazz basses! I was also very impressed with some of the Tokai precision copies that I played - they had a great feel! Hell, one of the most technically gifted Guitarists I have had the pleasure to meet, Francis Dunnery, preferred his $300 Squire strat to Any Fender that he had ever played!
 
Im not de-crying Korea, its people, its politics, beliefs, way of life or craftsmanship at all..but I do not believe I have played a Korean produced instrument yet that I would call TOP quality. I would, without being biased, not compare Korean quality to that achieved in Japan. Sorry, but its my honest assesment! If I get a hold of a Zon bass made in Korea that proves to be just that then I will be the first in line to hold my hands up and say I got it wrong guys.
 
I was trying to be careful with my original post because I wouldnt like Joe Zon to think I was having a go at his particular brand of basses - but I believe my general point to be valid.
 
Like a lot of the community here I have a family to support, a house to upkeep and a wife to try and convince every time i want to even THINK about buying another Alembic ( I can hear her now you have one, why do you need another! ) Im sure a lot of you catch my drift! The point that Im trying to make is this;
 
I make a nice living but it still took me 20+years to eventually justify fulfilling my dream of owning an Alembic. Without the desire to own something as individual and special as an Alembic what would be the point for any member of this club?
 
Would any of you settle for kissing good bye to your Alembic(s) and settling for a Korean factory produced axe?
 
Thank god for Alembic, and all companies of every kind, who have not sold out to the mass market of Make em cheap and pile em high!
 
John.

ajdover

  • club
  • Senior Member
  • *
  • Posts: 1046
Another Dilution of quality!
« Reply #14 on: July 11, 2008, 10:20:46 AM »
John,
 
     Didn't mean to infer you were de-crying Korea or anyplace else, and I hope it wasn't presented that way.  Perhaps I could have chosen a better choice of words ...
 
     Like you, I've yet to play a Korean instrument that comes close to what I consider top quality (e.g., Alembic, Lakland, Sadowsky, Pedulla, Fodera, etc.).  However, I have played some Korean instruments which, IMHO are the equal of some of the Japanese made instruments I've played.  For that matter, they're the equal of many USA made Fenders, Gibsons, etc. that I've played - at a much lower cost.
 
Would I kiss my Alembics goodbye for a Korean factory made axe?  Nope, but then again, a factory made axe and a largely hand-built Alembic are two different animals.  Would I discard a USA made Fender for a superior Korean made product?  Yes, particularly what I see coming out of Fender these days.
 
Alan