Tonight I'm Proud To Be An American

[lbpesq]

Unfortunately none of that is going to happen until this country stops its insane War on Some Drugs.  5% of the world's population, 25% of the world's prison population.  WE'RE NUMBER ONE!  And that, my friends, is something I am NOT proud of.
 
Bill, tgo

[mike1762]

Amen Bill.  As a physician, I see more damage done by tobacco and alcohol than every other drug COMBINED!!!  Legalize it, regulate it, and collect taxes on it.  If it's not illegal, the criminal element is removed.  As I mentioned somewhere above, I am an uncompassionate liberal (as opposed to a compassionate conservative).  As long as you are not hurting someone else, abuse yourself to your hearts content.  Just don't expect society to step in and save you from yourself.  
 
I think this thread has been a cathartic experience for a lot of people on a lot of different levels.  Although we are not supposed to be doing this at this site, everyone has a lot on their mind at what is surely a unique period of time.  I appreciate moderator Dave letting this one go, but I will make this my last post in this thread.  It's been fun and enlightening hearing all your opinions on so many different subjects.

[new2alembic]

3rd Ray Mike I am in total agreement with you. However; I have said way too much.  Mike1762 you speak for me as well.  Bill thank you for starting this thread.  I know that we all strayed way off point.  But it was a good cleansing for me.  Thank you Mod Dave for letting us rant.  I continue to learn so much from each of you.
 
Carl

[glocke]

When people talk about taxes getting raised, what often seems to go unmentioned or unnoticed is that we (Americans at least), are already very highly taxed.  In addition to the income tax we pay, every consumer good from food to plasma televisions have taxes  built into the price of the item.  So, from my point of view, its not the actual act of paying taxes that angers me, but its the fact that the feds already collect alot from people, and I bet that at least 5-10% of what they collect they cant even account for....and they want more??? Sorry....What they need to do is go over the books very carefully and get rid of any wasteful spending the find before they even consider collecting higher taxes from anyone....
 
An earlier post mentioned how some CEO made 14.3 million one year....and one person who posted asked why does someone need that much money?....I can see that point...but that CEO is probably getting taxed quite a bit on that 14.3 million..furthermore, this is a free country, and if he earned that money legally than it is his right to do whatever he wants with it...I personally think it takes alot of nerve to tell someone what they need to/should do with their money...
 
As for corporations, I really dont know how corporations are taxed...In the past I was part of the crowd that used to berate the greedy corporations, but  Ive come to realize that granting certain financial incentives to corporations is something thats good for everybody.  It encourages job growth, it helps to stimulate the economy, and it helps stabilize, and in some cases revitalize local economies....
 
(Message edited by glocke on November 08, 2008)

[hydrargyrum]

I'm not sure our taxes are exceptional from an international perspective:
 
http://thinkorthwim.com/2007/04/29/tax-rates-by-country/
 
http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0922307.html

[glocke]

Compared to other countries they arent excessive, but thats not the point.  Besides, there are reasons the taxes in those countries are so high....
 
I just think that the feds need to go through and look at what is already being spent where and get rid of waste before any taxes are raised....If they did that they would probably find they can do what they want without raising taxes.....
 
Furthermore, call me greedy if you want, but I think people are entitled to keep what they earn.  High wage earners usually make that kind of money due to alot of hard work and investment in themselves (i.e. going to college, med school, etc).   They deserve to reap all the rewards that their hardwork brings them.

[hydrargyrum]

I agree with you completely on elimination of waste.  I also agree with you regarding keeping what you earn.  When I hear the statistics regarding how many of the employees of these companies are struggling to afford health care is when I begin to have a problem.  I'm not sure I can even conceive of how hard someone needs to work to really justify a salary of 14 million a year.  And when these people have essentially brokered the efforts of the employees below them, don't those employees deserve a piece of the pie?  Yeah I guess I am an uncurable socialist .

[glocke]

I dunno..Until I sit in the shoes of someone making 14 million a year, Im not going to be very judgemental...
 
I work for a pretty big pharma company, and our execs bring home salaries that are in the millions....I also know that the responsibility they have is enormous, and it is really pretty much of a 24 hour/seven day a week job, so I would really say that their compensation is justified...I certainly would not want that position.
 
Also, if one is going to bash the execs of these companies for earning that much money (while at the same time providing jobs for many, many people), than one also needs to bash the athletes who make just as much money, and are probably even more greedy and more selfish.
 
I personally dont care who makes what....Even as far as the oil companies go, we all hear about the gross profits they make, but how much of that is taxed?  how much of that of that goes back into R&D and exploration?
 
 . And when these people have essentially brokered the efforts of the employees below them, don't those employees deserve a piece of the pie? Yeah I guess I am an uncurable socialist  
 
 
Its a little more complicated than that.  Where I work we get a bonus every year that is based upon how well the company did.  This is a fixed percentage for everyone.  However, people at higher levels not only get that bonus, but they get an additional 15% bonus every year....Is this fair?  You tell me...the people that get that extra 15% (im not one of them), usually are the ones with the more advanced degrees, and they are the ones that have more responsibility because they are managers...sounds perfectly fair to me..Furthermore, when I see the hours they need to put in, and the amount of BS they need to put up with, there is not any amount of money you could pay me to have to deal with that.  These people basically have very little free time...
 
Its funny...I grew up at or near the poverty level...so I know what it is like to be dirt poor...My parents managed to make ends meet somehow...they never complained, and they never expected a handout from anyone..These days things seem to be quite different...people seem to expect more and act like they have a right to dip into someone elses hard earned money...For myself, I never really started doing well into about 5-6 years ago..Prior to that I was dirt poor...I could barely afford to pay my electric...Even than I never had any interest or desire to have someone elses money diverted to help me out.  I made do with what I had....

[hydrargyrum]

It still amazes me that people pay to watch others play sports at all.
 
I agree with you that I don't want the responsibility that executives and managers take on.  I can't imagine sacrificing that much time away from my family for any amount of money.  
I guess ultimately I am a little concerned with the way that materialism seems to be so much a measure of success in the U.S.  I have enjoyed this conversation, and I certainly think you make some valid points.  I suspect that maybe the best solution probably lies somewhere in the median of our differing philosophies.

[glocke]

Oh, I agree...The answer is clearly in the middle...We need taxes for the obvious reasons, and we need social programs for obvious reasons....Its just the amount of taxation that is in question and the lack of fiscal responsibility that the feds show time and time again that I have a problem with.
 
I agree wholeheartedly on the materialism issue....I think thats actually more of a mental illness of some type than anything.

[3rd_ray]

The reason why people at higher levels of the company get higher bonuses is because they?re worth more to the company. It?s an incentive to stay with the company. It costs more to replace someone who has 20 years of experience than it does to replace someone who has 2 years of experience.  
 
The US doesn?t have the highest tax rates in the world, but they?re high enough. You can?t just look at corporate taxes or income taxes, you have to look at everything.  
 
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tax_rates_around_the_world
 
Just because our taxes aren?t the highest in the world doesn?t mean that it?s okay to raise our rates. There?s a definite correlation between high taxes and low job growth. People like to ask ?are you better off now than you were 8 years ago?? The question should be ?would you have been better if tax rates were higher?? Taxes on business tend to get passed on to consumers. Raising their taxes raises your cost. Low taxes are good for everyone except bureaucrats.  
 
Mike
 
 
(Message edited by 3rd_ray on November 08, 2008)

[dnburgess]

This had been a fascinating thread - with relatively little rancour, considering the issues. Well done. My earlier congratulatory comment was about the process rather than the specific political outcome. i.e. People in many parts of the world viewed the election result as reaffirmation of the American dream that anything is possible.  
 
In some respects the debate that has flowed in this thread is a microcosm of that process.
 
The debate about taxes, exec pay, etc can be boiled down to two questions:
1. How best to grow the pie?
2. How best to distribute the pie?
 
There is no doubt in my mind that free markets have been spectacularly successful in growing the pie. But there are plenty of examples of market failure.
 
Externalities are the big one. For example, what's to stop businesses trashing the environment for commercial gain? Governments typically respond by imposing a cost on the use of the environment. e.g. prohibition backed by fines, bonds for restitution of mining projects, etc.
 
The current GFC is arguably an example of market failure. The market mechanism that was meant to spread certain risks actually ended up concentrating them in certain large financial institutions.
 
Regarding distribution of the pie - the free market mechanism is the trickle down. That is, as businesses grow, they create more jobs - so more workers are drawn into the bottom of the pyramid, more foremen, managers, senior managers, etc are needed so advancement paths are created for people in the pyramid, etc. The market will set remuneration for each position in the pyramid based on supply and demand for those skills.
 
But the trickle down is not perfect either - so governments create safety nets for those to whom nothing (or not enough) trickles - for example, the severely disabled. The extent of safety nets is the subject of much debate.
 
Also related to distributing the pie is how to apportion the cost of public goods - benefits that we get as a member of society that we don't directly pay for. Defence is an obvious example. There doesn't appear to be an obvious free market mechanism to pay for these goods - so governments distribute the cost via taxation. The relative share born by different members of society is also the subject of much debate.
 
Where am I going with all of this? I am making the point that free markets have an important role to play in growing the pie and distributing the pie - but on their own they are inadequate.
 
Once this is acknowledged, a meaningful debate can be had in the middle about the extent and nature of intervention.

[lbpesq]

Free market?  I'm reminded of Dylan's line:  
 
Steal a little and they throw you in jail,  
Steal a lot and they make you king.
 
Big banks and investment firms f**k up and the feds give them $700 billion.  Mom & Pop's store goes under ... where's their bail out?  That's democracy?  Capitalism?
 
The problem with capitalism, as I see it, is that when it matures it becomes like a cancer on itself.  The central core purpose of everything is replaced with making money.  Leo Fender starts out with a central core purpose of making a better guitar.  He busts his ass, comes up with some genius ideas, completely changes the industry, is successful, and as Fender matures, the pure purpose changes from making good instruments to making money.  And guess what?  Quality takes a nose dive.  The same can be found in almost any mature industry one can imagine.  This is what makes Alembic so unique ... and the recognition of this uniqueness is what brings us together in the Wickersham's cyber-livingroom.  Personally, I don't think any human's work is worth $14 mil/year relative to another human's work which is only worth $6.55/hr or $13,624/yr (U.S. minimum wage).  I always was impressed with Ben & Jerry's company policy that the highest paid person in the company could only make a certain percentage higher than the lowest paid person.  Remember - absolute power corrupts absolutely.  Put most people in a position where they can have most everything while most everyone else has almost nothing and most people will go for it.
 
Bill, tgo

[dannobasso]

So where does the Esquire class fit in in the redistribution scheme?

[georgie_boy]

Just want to say that I have really enjoyed this thread!
What is happening in America is about to happen here in the UK.
Let's hope it's all for the better.
We have the same problems, and it is time for a radical change.
Let's all try to be nice to each other......it costs nothing to be a nice, caring person
 
Just my $0.02/?0.02
 
George