Gibson factories raided

[lesh_lash]

This is not the first time Gibson has been raided over this same crap!  Like it or not this is a political matter!!! How can it not be??? Since it is only gibson getting screwed with and no one else???  
And by the way since when did we accept India's laws in America??? Oh yea we didn't!!!!

[hb3]

That's what the Lacey Act is. Circa 1900. But there does seem to be an issue with selective enforcement that some people are interpreting politically.

[peoplechipper]

It's not completely political here, more like 'efficient policing'; hit the big guy and the little guys'll smarten up...bad for Gibson as they seem to be really trying to be good guys...if we're all lucky they'll go after Martin for those Formica guitars as 'crimes against tone!' Tony

[chuck]

Gibson has a law suit against the fed's for the return of wood taken in a previous raid.
Could this be retribution.
 
Chuck

[hb3]

Martin is little?  
 
Meanwhile...can't resist posting this...from the second WSJ article...
 
After the 2009 raid, Mr. Juszkiewicz resigned from the board of the Rainforest Alliance, which seeks to preserve tropical forests. He said he didn?t want to tar the nonprofit with bad publicity. A Rainforest Alliance spokeswoman said he wasn?t pressured to step down, and the group continues to praise Gibson?s efforts to promote responsible harvesting of wood.
 
Scott Paul, a Greenpeace official in New York responsible for forestry issues, said Gibson for years has done 'great work' to promote better forestry practices.

[hydrargyrum]

Maybe Martin, Fender, etc. didn't violate the law.  It seems as though most of the posts here assume that every major guitar company is breaking the law, and that only Gibson is being picked on.  That seems like a pretty big assumption to me (unless someone actually has some proof to the contrary).
 
Also, I know that if I worked for one of those other guitar companies, I would certainly be applying a level of heightened scrutiny to my imports.

[hb3]

Kevin,  
 
In an overly regulated bureaucracy, there are so many laws and regulations it's almost guaranteed that the PTB can find violations if they want to. This applies to more than just guitar companies; it's a point about society many people have made from a variety of different political perspectives, from Ayn Rand to Robert Anton Wilson. Or Terry Gilliam's Brazil. It's a well-worn theme at this point.

[hydrargyrum]

I'll agree that in a complicated system it isn't hard to catch someone violating the law on a technicality.  I would also point out that if you're been caught violating the law once, you had better expect that you will receive heightened scrutiny in the future (especially if your employees have been caught authoring emails which suggest purchasing raw materials via the grey market, i.e. illegally).  This applies to law enforcement at all levels.  I'm sure a cop is more likely to search the car of an ex-con in a traffic stop than he is the average Joe.  However, I still think it unlikely that the President sat down with the director of the USFW and hatched a conspiracy to attack the Republican party via Gibson guitar.

[hb3]

Lol! Well, when you turn it into a parody, then yeah, it's easy to dismiss.  
 
More information will reveal itself...maybe...but that's the thing about paranoia -- it may be justified, it may not be, and it's frequently impossible to tell which is which. The common result is fear and uncertainty, which is what the first article noted -- a trickle-down effect to the everyday musician. This is a good example of the Kafkaesque.  
 
One thing I'd like to know is really how great the risk is of having your instrument confiscated by customs. Is that just a trumped up fear, or is it real? Personally, I've been thinking of doing some gigs out of the country, but if there's any risk they're gonna take my bass, forget it....

[tubeperson]

You cannot forget President Nixon's hit list.  A Democrat is just as likely to behave as  
badly as Nixon did.  We hear the current administration is preparing a smear campaign for any Republican challenger.  No politician or political party is innocent.

[hydrargyrum]

No politician or political party is innocent.  I think we can all agree there.  
 
At this point I think it best for me to politely cease my additions to this topic in this particular venue.  I've enjoyed the conversation, and certainly take no personal offense to anything that has been posted here.  While I like to think that I would have normally avoided topics which were exclusively political, this topic did include areas that I thought relevant (specifically, travel with instruments, and regulations regarding instrument manufacture).  I believe I've crossed the lines on the posting guidelines, and I appreciate the patience shown by our gracious hosts at Alembic for allowing this conversation.  If anyone would like to continue in a private setting, my email is in my profile, and I would be happy to converse with any of you.  I have nothing but admiration for this company, and group of folks.

[eligilam]

Wow....a Robert Anton Wilson mention.   I love this community!

[peoplechipper]

Yah, smart people here!
 
The whole thing here is probably some border agency got lazy and skipped a step and someone at the other end had a hissy fit and went for it...I am glad to know that there are strong restrictions on exotic woods, it helps preserve the good stuff and keep it from extinction...
 
Seriously better than the gem industry...I'm a goldsmith so at times I gotta buy gems...customer wants a deep red ruby; I find a Thai one at a local gem dealer...I know that Thai ruby is actually kinda pink, the Thai ruby I just bought was actually Burmese that had been smuggled 'where the sun don't shine' across the border to Thailand...all you can do is decide to buy or not...why I try to recycle jewellery...
 
The diamond business is actually way better at tracking sources for stones(like the wood biz!) but the coloured stone biz will likely never get there. Too many uncertainties of supply, too many of the stones come from marginal and unmanageable places mined by unknown people...Tony

[glocke]

Here is the latest from Fox News:
 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/09/02/gibson-feds-want-guitar-woodwork-done-by-foreign-labor/?test=latestnews
 
Gibson is now claiming that the feds have implied that if foreign labor is used for some of the work their problems might go away.  Very odd if true, but given other current events that have been in the news recently it would not surprise me (hint: google fast and furious).
 
Also, several things about this really undermine the credibility of the feds, and make it looks as if our government is taking it upon itself to interpret/enforce/prosecute the laws of other countries:
 
1)  The Indian gov't has not stepped up and said any of its laws had been violated.
 
2)  Gibson appears to have the support of several conservation organizations on its side.
 
3)  Most importantly, no charges have been filed,even stemming from the 2009 case.  This in itself is somewhat scary, as it implies that if they suspect there is a crime, the feds can freely take what is yours and hold onto it indefinitely as it tries to determine if a crime was committed.  I am guess that at least as far as the 2009 case goes, since charges have yet to be filed the feds are having a hard time coming up with legitimate charges.
 
Seems like the feds are kind of writing the book as they go along on this one.