Author Topic: Guitar building question- electronics  (Read 265 times)

caden_vekk

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Guitar building question- electronics
« on: March 31, 2008, 04:21:39 PM »
Oy i'm back. I've got another question. I was talking to one of the guys at the local Ken Stanton and I asked about jack plates and if they were absolutely necessary, he said No, as long as your wiring is grounded somewhere else, like to the bridge. I've only ever heard of grounding/earthing to the bridge but is grounding to the jack plate an option? Could i ground it to any random bit of metal, say a embed a nail or screw into the electrical cavity, could i ground it to that if its not touching any hot wires?

elwoodblue

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2008, 05:29:10 PM »
The more 'cold'(as opposed to hot) conductive metal you have the negative on the jack connected to the better the ground...even better if that 'cold' circuit surrounds the hot, sheilding it from incoming waves of energy...hence the silver paint inside the cavities of our beloved alembics.
 
I hope others will chime in...sometimes communication isn't my forte'

dfung60

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2008, 06:01:39 PM »
Your pickups are a coil of wire surrounding a permanent magnet which projects a magnetic field in the area of the strings.  The strings are at least partly made of ferrous metal, so when you play, they upset this magnetic field.  The changing magnetic field induces a voltage in the coil, which is the output signal from the pickups.
 
The pickup coil not only picks up changes in magnetic field, it will pick up any other electromagnetic fields as well, which includes electrical noise from dimmers, power supplies, computers, etc.  
 
To reduce extraneous noise, you shield the electronics to try to prevent EM fields from getting to your pickups.  One important part of this is to shield the electronics cavity.  By making a conductive cage around the electronics in your guitar, you can block out weaker interference.  Making this cage is usually done by using metal or conductive paint all around the control cavity and in the pickup cavities.
 
The better the shielding, the more noise you can eliminate.  In guitars, the bridge is often attached to the grounded shield.  This makes the strings act as part of the shield which blocks off more EM from the pickups.  But when you touch these grounded strings, YOU become part of the shielding as well.  Since you're big and filled with water, you are a much more effective shield than the measures you've taken on your guitar.
 
To have the shielding work, you want to completely surround the electronics.  Every part of the shield needs to be connected to a common point electrically, and that point needs to be connected to your signal ground.  I'm not exactly sure what a jack plate is (I assume that this is a plate that the jack is mounted on, like on a Strat or Les Paul), but you want this to be part of the grounded stuff.  
 
On a guitar like a Strat, you want to shield the bottom of the pickguard, but you also need to make sure that the foil shielding there is in full electrical contact with the rest of the grounded stuff.  If it's not a zero-resistance connection, then you will compromise the shield effectiveness, but it will still work to some extent.  The best kind of grounding be what's called star grounding where a wire connects every piece of the shield to a common point.  Obviously having your back plate or pick guard connected to the electronics compartment by a wire is a hassle for maintenance.
 
While we're on the subject, you make a good ground for your guitar, but you do so at some risk.  A regular electric guitar has an unbalanced signal which is carried on a single conductor and on the shield braid in your cable (versus the balanced signal of a microphone where the signal is carried on two conductors in the cable and the shield is a separate line).  In the amp, the signal ground and the electrical ground are usually connected together.  
 
If there's a wiring problem of your amp relative to other AC-powered stuff on stage, you run the risk that the signal/power ground might actually be connected to the AC live power. Since the guitar's strings are grounded and you are touching them, you become the path for full line power if you touch something which has opposite ground - really unpleasant or even fatal if that turns out to be a microphone.  These days, shock hazard is reduced by 3-prong grounding, but there are lots of opportunities to play in places where the outlets might be wired incorrectly or the ground line might not be connected.  If you've every used an old tube Fender Bassman or the like, you are certainly familiar with the death switch which reverses the live and ground lines!  When you use an amp like this you have a 50% chance of getting zapped, depending on how everything else on stage happened to be set up!
 
There are ways to avoid the shock hazard, but most of them compromise your shielding.  On guitars equipped with active EMG pickups, they recommend that you NOT ground the strings for safety.  The reason that this can work is that the EMG active internal construction is designed to reduce hum (they are all hum-cancelling designs) and the electronics module inside the pickup itself is heavily shielded.
 
David Fung

pauldo

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2008, 06:36:07 PM »
yep - that settles it.
Electricity is magic.
 
If you see the magic smoke come out of an electronic component it will never work again, because you can't put the magic smoke back into it.
 
:p

keurosix

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #4 on: March 31, 2008, 08:02:17 PM »
Dave,
Does it make sense to put a shield in each pickup cavity, such as conductive paint, or a copper foil? Would this reduce the directional hum I sometimes experience when I stand too close to my amp or light dimmers, etc? If I understand your post correctly, would these shielded PU cavities also need to be connected to the control cavity shielding too, say with a connecting wire?
Kris

terryc

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2008, 01:45:51 AM »
Keurosix - I shielded my Squier Strat with copper foil and it cut the hum a lot, that included the whole cavity.
Dfung..I installed a capacitor, can't remember the farad number but it was a mod that was recommended to protect you from shock hazard, it is soldered between the hot wire and the jack lug.
I did once experience a 'tingle' due to faulty equipment..not nice at all!!

paulman

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2008, 06:28:26 AM »
I knew an electronics guy that said Solid state electronics run on smoke.  I said What? That's crazy  his reply was Well do they seem to work after you let the smoke out of them?
 
We both let the smoke out after that
The only thing that stays the same is change.

lbpesq

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2008, 07:14:45 AM »
David wrote:
 
Since the guitar's strings are grounded and you are touching them, you become the path for full line power if you touch something which has opposite ground - really unpleasant or even fatal if that turns out to be a microphone.
 
I have but one word in response:  cordless, man, cordless!
 
Bill, tgo

elwoodblue

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2008, 10:06:13 AM »
I remember reading that Bobby was pretty pissed at Bear one show when the hot signal got to the microphone chassis...very scary stuff.
 
 ...good advice bill

caden_vekk

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2008, 03:11:44 PM »
Thanks alot for the reply dfung, I appreciate the effort but you didn't answer my question.
 
[YES] or [NO]
Can the jack plate (yes the metal plate to which the jack is secured) be used as a ground/earth?

elwoodblue

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #10 on: April 01, 2008, 05:47:13 PM »
...the water analogy applies...if your ground is only the jack plate,it's a very small sponge for alot of rain...again I'm in the clouds,
 
best of luck

terryc

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2008, 02:17:48 AM »
caden vekk  yes it can since the ground lug is attached to the outer barrel of the socket which in turn is bolted to the mounting plate.

elwoodblue

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2008, 06:32:57 AM »
David,
I wanted to thank you for being clear and detailed,
I refer to you posts when I need some in depth info.
 peace

caden_vekk

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2008, 11:56:46 AM »
Thanks alot guys. Sorry, i dont mean to be a bother or anything but i only have until April 15th to finish it and I'm in a hurry so I am a bit jumpy with all of this. Again i appologize for any rudeness that may have come about.

terryc

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Guitar building question- electronics
« Reply #14 on: April 03, 2008, 03:39:20 AM »
Is this a school project for an exam??  
Good luck if it is...deadlines..they all come around too soon