You'll always have an "accent", if you started to learn music after your young teens (Marcus Miller)

[piotr_c]

Hi Everyone,
 
I was watching an interview of Marcus Miller on youtube this weekend. Basically he compares music with a language and says that if you learn it at a later stage than in your young teens (or before), you'll always be stuck with an accent (e.g. Inspector Clouseau speaking english). Check it out from minute 4:00 onwards:  
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7p43B7QWKsU
 
Of course, he says that you can find your thing and playing with an accent can be cute,..., but well... at the end of the day, somewhere he implies you'll never be a real musician (and for me real doesn't imply being a professional musician).
 
How truthful is this in your experience and how scared should I be, as I started the instrument at 37 years old...! And please two more things about your answers:
 
1. Don't protect my feelings, go for an honest answer as always...!
2. No judgement on MM himself, but just on the theme of the quote...
 
Thanks,
 
Pierre

[tubeperson]

Well  that is Marcus' opinion, but someone who is determined can learn music and play an instrument at any age.  In fact, sometimes the exuberance of youth sets boundaries that a more experienced person does not have. It is quite common for Pat Metheny to have his band members learn odd instruments for live performances. Whenever I have had the opportunity to see him live, the peripheral players learned their new craft very well.  As an example, are you a better companion to your life partner at age 15 or age 35?  Do senior citizens grasp the new technology such as the internet, cell phones etc. I would say they do. I think he did not really think that through, unless he is referring to speed of playing (there's that too many notes thing again) versus tasteful playing, such as Eric Clapton transitioning from Cream to where he is today, a blues player). Ask him that question in 15 years and see what he says.

[hammer]

Pierre:
 
You ask and interesting and hotly debated question that I?ll respond to coming from the perspective of a child psychologist who has studied the development of children and young adults for more years than I currently wish to acknowledge.  
 
Having looked at the literature in this area as well as that related to language development I can say that at least some of what Marcus Miller suggests appears to have some evidence to back it up. Keep in mind that I said ?some? of what he suggests appears to be true. The manner in which our brains work seems to make skill acquisition in a number of different areas easier during certain periods or phases of development than others.  This includes both cognitive and physical skills.  There is currently no question, for example, that language acquisition is easier at younger as opposed to older ages.  In this area, their seems to be a period from about age to 2 to age 6 during which our brains are primed for the development of language and language-related skill development.
 
The research suggests, however, that this is more of a sensitive period than a critical period.  By that I mean it is easier to acquire language skills during this phase of development than others. In no way does the research suggest that language acquisition that occurs at a later point in development will necessarily be inferior.  It may take a bit more work, but the overall level of skill acquisition attained can be just as great and potentially even greater because of the tremendous impact of practice.  
 
What does the research say about musical development? For a nice review, I suggest reading an article by Trainor, L.J. (2005). Are There Critical Periods for Musical Development? Developmental Psychobiology 46: 262?278.  It?s available online I believe at http://psycserv.mcmaster.ca/ljt/critical_periods.pdf. This research team at McMaster University in Canada concluded that while there is supporting evidence for critical periods in music development, this pertains more to basic than complex aspects of musical acquisition and that there are many different pathways through which one can acquire expertise in the field of music.
 
Given that musicianship involves much more than pitch acquisition and neuromuscular coordination, the researchers conclude that developing expertise in this area of life is like many other human capacities as result of a complex interplay of genetics, opportunity, and the drive to practice, practice, practice. I think it?s also important to note that while some aspects of musicianship such as pitch identification and the ability to quickly finger specific chords or scales as a result of neurological patterns developing might be facilitated by early exposure, musicianship is much more than this. Ever listen to a person play a musical piece in a technically perfect manner, but fail to be moved at all by the composition? That ability to embed emotion and feeling in to one?s playing is learned as a result of experiencing life along with all its ups and downs.  
 
So to summarize...I totally agree with Steve (aka tubeperson). Though it might take you a bit longer to master certain aspects of musicianship, if your committed to the endeavor, you'll likely be successful. A great example from the field of visual arts is the famous folk artist Grandma Moses who didn't start painting until in to her seventies.

[tubeperson]

Thanks, Hammer for laying some smack down.  Usually I create a disturbance (my selling nature perhaps), such as the issue of reading music and not just relying on feel as contested in other posts.  I am aware of language skills learning for youngsters; in my experience, I always spoke to my son in his infant and todler years in an adult like fashion.  At age 14, he has an uncanny ability to learn various languages, and I continue encourage him to pursue this.  Can't hurt him with meeting friends from all over the world, especially since he is a very talented competitive figure skater and meets many people from many countries. A strong linguistics skill set can only help him in a global economy and who knows, perhaps with the FBI and CIA, since the current administration is intent on having everyone work for the government.  Thanks for the empirical anecdotes!

[piotr_c]

Wow, that's what I call documentation...! But at least it is reassuring, for certainty is nowhere, which gives me a chance to hope to become a decent player.
I must say that I was lucky to date a girl at the time who's family on her father's side were nearly all classical musicians, one of her cousin's is even a famous Choir director.
She could play piano beautifully, as long as the partition was there, read fluently of course, but after she played la cath?drale engloutie  by Debussy (tube you would love it... Very few notes, but close your eyes and you can actually see the cathedral sinking...!), i asked her if she could improvise me something more jazzy on the piano. Impossible for her. Her sister, an alto violinist, has an absolute ear, no improvising as well. In short, interpretation yes, improvisation, the ultimate no go, it always stunned me.
Anyway, thanks to both of you for your opinons and documentation... I now hope that the fact of having at least listened to a very large sample of music these past 30 years has helped my brain to grow some sort of musical capacity...!

[afrobeat_fool]

I would like to add something. I am a son of a Julliard trained classical pianist. My mother played in the Cincinnati symphony. As a small child through my 10th year I practiced religiously on the piano and vocally. Then I found soccer. My mothers personality and my need for freedom became a problem and I stopped playing. But when I wanted to return to music I liked, Jazz, It was amazing what I could hear and others could not. The early training held on for a long time.  
    Ultimately I found that I am interested in music for my own pleasure. Sometimes with others, sometimes in live setting, etc... But I always play for me. Phil Baker (Diana Ross,Pink Martini) asked me a question years ago that took me a long time to figure out. Who are you playing for, Nick? The crowd, your mother, that hot girl stage left, or you? If it's not for you, then you will never have your own voice I think we all have accents no matter when we started. The only exception would be a person who made his/her own instrument and never heard one note of man made music and never had one second of training. Accent=influence.  
     Piotr, I hope you come to understand that you are the only one that matters in this question. Buying instruments is fun. I've had a bunch. I have found that my Alembic SII shorty is the tool that suits me. I am done looking. I find that I am now at ease with my Bass. I am not asking for more from it, as was the case from other basses. That has become part of my voice.
 
Nick

[piotr_c]

Hi Nick, thanks for that great input. I agree with you, that the end of the day, playing for oneself is the name of the game (not in the egotistic sense, but because of the pleasurous feeling you have while playing). If i'm not too indiscreet and curious, i would like to know how you came back to music once you broke your chains.  
I'm absolutely convinced that the religious classical training at young age was more than precious for your musical development. Was the step from classical to jazz and others a hard one? I mean not in your intellectual new found freedom, but simply getting back to a musical instrument, and a different one for that matter?
Otherwise, relative to buying a bunch of instruments, it is a point well taken. Too much GAS for me at the moment, but this somehow pushes me to play and practice more, even if one of these days the for sale section will be filling up...!

[dfung60]

This is an interesting question!  
 
For what it's worth, I did start with music at a young age, but I think that where you are in your life when you intersect with music (both when you start listening and when you start playing) have a lot of effect on how you manifest as a musician.  That said, it's sort of like everything around music - your goodness is subjective not objective in most cases.
 
There are definitely some huge differences that you will have when you start young that won't be the same when you're an adult.  Starting young just gives you more absolute time for you to develop physical mastery of your instrument.  If you start young enough that somebody is supporting you, there are a whole different focus on what your life is about and what percentage of your hours you dedicate to playing.  When you're a grown-up with a job and bills to pay, you probably won't spend every afternoon thrashing it out in the basement, and when you play with others, you'll have different expectations of what your abilities should be.  It's just a totally different thing, which isn't necessarily bad, but is definitely different!
 
David Fung

[bigredbass]

Well good for Marcus, but I always think of music like food:  Some days, BBQ.  Some days, Chinese.  Next day, steak and potatoes.  I don't want to eat the same thing every day, so I'd better learn to cook some of everything . . . .
 
MM has played with lots of different people in different situations, and he sounds like  . . . Marcus Miller.  So lemme get this straight, he's not 'playing with an accent' by being in lots of situations and winds up sounding like he's . . . Marcus Miller.  OK, so it's not an accent if it sounds like yourself ?
 
I'm all for accents.  Whether its Miles, or Eddie Van Halen, or Stanley, or Neil Peart, or Vladimir Horowitz, or Sinatra, isn't that what draws us ?  All my life, all I wanted was a McCartney accent, maybe Carol Kaye or Duck Dunn.
 
I understand what MM's saying, but for me, I'd be very happy to do one thing well.  But then, I'll never play for Miles, and that's OK, I'm just playing for me.
 
Piotr, I often wish I'd started at 37 !
 
J o e y

[peoplechipper]

This is a wonderfully juicy thread, we all have our connections to it; I started playing in my teens then dropped it for 10+ years( played with guitars more than I played them...but I'm pretty good at guitar repair as a result...) but I picked it up again and over time now play bass more than guitar. The thing is that I am supremely ignorant of music's rules, which I am slowly learning so I can play with others(good for the playground...) but it is fun to break the rules when you don't know them...
 
The one thing I have going for me is my 'accent' which is a certain distorted tone that other local players praise...I recently realized that it really is in the player as I was getting the same tone on another bass ACOUSTICALLY...first time I ever attributed that thing to myself, and I don't think that can be taught, although it can surely be encouraged...Tony

[tubeperson]

Nick, I think playing for yourself is by far the most important thing.  I played clarinet in elementary school, then in Jr. High (now called middle school), but it was not until I picked up a bass as a teen that I really got into music for me.  This is not a selfish me, although some might see it that way.  I have been married just about 21 years, and my wife has never heard me play.  Go figure that one out!  I would have no problem jamming with others!  
 
David, youth certainly has its advantages, more Free time to devote to studies, less other pressures such as family to support and bills etc., probably fewer biases (but not enough experience to see beyond boundaries) plus more energy period. My Mom always told me mothers were meant to be young, and I think that is for two reasons, more youthful energy (if my son was now an infant, it would be hard for me to chase him down since I need a cane to walk most times, as compared to when he was always crawling around and looking for the escalator for an adventure and I had no walking or running restrictions), and perhaps some useful naivety, but when we are older, we have experience and reflection to draw from (perhaps an older parent would not fret (heh, heh, heh pun intentional) over minor issues that an less experienced parent would not be as concerned about.  This is where the parental chant Wait till you have kids comes from.
 
Joey, feel is certainly extremely important, I am not sure you can learn something like that if you don't have it to begin with, but I will choose to believe you can develop it at least. And reading plus theory  ........ Just had to pull a Jeff Berlin on ya'.  You are a treat to have around here!

[Glynn]

Noddy Holder from Slade  - now that's my sort of accent!!!  Glynn

[tubeperson]

How about  I certainly was in the right from the making of Dark side of the Moon?  Or, there is no dark side, its all dark (same source).

[elwoodblue]

Right...right, Your bloody well right...
 
Great thread folks!

[gtrguy]

I started playing at 14 and still don't have it down!
 
Dave