Author Topic: Cobra (Zorn) improv  (Read 972 times)

cozmik_cowboy

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #15 on: June 05, 2013, 11:32:01 PM »
Ok, now I've listened, and I have to say, I'm with Kevin & Bradley; this is to music as performance art is to art (and the befunge link just made my head hurt; what is it talking about?  Just knowing what the discipline is might help.).  Yes, I'm sure the performers are all quite talented - but I'm also sure you couldn't tell the difference if none of them had ever touched an instrument before going onstage for this.
 
Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

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rustyg61

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #16 on: June 06, 2013, 12:24:11 AM »
I have always been a fan of obscure music, but to qualify as music the piece has to have rhythm or melody or both, not just incoherent sounds tossed about like the steel ball in a pinball game. This sounds like a preschool on a field trip to a music store, just random chaos.  :-) The Art Of Noise took random noises & put them together musically to create songs that I loved, but I could only take about 2 minutes of Cobra. I'm sure the musicians are incredible players to be able to make sounds on cue with no sense of timing or counting, but give me a melodic bass line from Jimmy Johnson or catchy composition from Snarky Puppy any day over the chaos of Cobra. As they say, to each his own!
Rusty
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811952

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #17 on: June 06, 2013, 05:54:26 AM »
Here's what I see in it:
 
Take a standard tune, say, Blue Bossa or Footprints, and apply Cobra with some restraint.  I.E. A and B sections and so forth.  Not the full-on cartoon noises, but use it within the framework of a composition.  I watched Dave's youtube link to Zorn using it and I found it completely unlistenable, but I look forward to experimenting with the tools and hearing what can happen with it.
 
John
 
(Message edited by 811952 on June 06, 2013)

cozmik_cowboy

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #18 on: June 06, 2013, 09:24:11 AM »
The more I think about it, the more I wonder if anybody's ever seen John Zorn & Andy Kaufmann in the same room.  This really has the feel of messing with (and laughing at) the audience for your own amusement, of let's see how big a nothing we can convince people is something, of the Charlie Sheen-to-a-walkout I've already got your money, dude attitude.
 
Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

darkstar01

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #19 on: June 06, 2013, 10:20:18 AM »
i didn't even watch the video until now, but the group of musicians on there is ridiculous. Marc Ribot is one of the best guitar players I've ever heard, and is on countless great recordings (including a lot of Tom Waits music). Trevor Dunn was in Mr Bungle (enough said), Joey Baron plays with everybody and is a freak. Erik Friedlander is probably THE best cellist I've ever seen live. Seriously, if you're not taking John Zorn seriously, do yourself a favor and listen to the Masada String Trio with Friedlander, Mark Feldman, and Greg Cohen.

 
(Message edited by darkstar01 on June 06, 2013)

811952

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #20 on: June 06, 2013, 10:58:56 AM »
There's some really good music there.  Zorn is more than a bit abrasive imho, but whatever.  
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a95ODn5k_1c
 
Thanks for the link!
John

darkstar01

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2013, 11:09:45 AM »
Oh yeah. He's a piece of work for sure. but he's a genius when it comes to music.

hydrargyrum

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2013, 11:46:34 AM »
My first impression from Dave's link was that the conductor's ego must be astoundingly huge.  The first few seconds of John's link confirmed that.  However, I'd also say that the music in John's link was much, much better.  One of my favorite sayings is even a broken clock is right twice a day.
 
I didn't recognize Marc Ribot on sight, but I love his work with Tom Waits.  Ditto with Dunn and Mr. Bungle.  I like to flatter myself that among my musician friends, I have the weirdest taste (and I'm pretty sure they would agree).  But this stuff is ego run amok.  The emperor has no clothes.

darkstar01

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2013, 11:56:38 AM »
Im not really trying to defend Zorn, because like someone already said - to each their own. But I've never understood why people take this music as a personal insult. Like you cant just not like it, you have to be offended that it even exists. Just an observation

cozmik_cowboy

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2013, 12:06:15 PM »
OK, John's link is a little better, but there are still big chunks of pretentiousness, of self-consious look how weird I can be, I must be cool crap.  Zorn may have talent hidden in there somewhere, but it seems to be hiding behind the maturity of a 9th-grade hipster wannabe.
 
Peter
"Is not Hypnocracy no other than the aspiration to discover the meaning of Hypnocracy?  Have you heard the one about the yellow dog yet?"
St. Dilbert

"If I could explain it in prose, i wouldn't have had to write the song."
Robt. Hunter

hydrargyrum

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2013, 12:41:38 PM »
I'm not offended or insulted by the music, but the personal attacks on the photographers in the second link are childish.  Even more disgusting was the sycophantic reaction from the crowd, who seemed to thoroughly enjoy his poor manners.  Sometimes it seems like success in the avant garde world simply depends on convincing the hip crowd that you're one of them, and just as importantly, that anyone who doesn't buy into your brand of crap is wrong minded.  Personally I'll stick with listening to random construction noises.
 
Jackhammer: BRRRRR BRRRRRR
Concrete Truck:  Beep, Beep, Beep, hissssss
Voice:  John, call on line 1.  John, call on line 1
Jackhammer: BRRRRRRrrrraRRRR
Car Horn:  Neep! Neep! Neep!
Hammer:  Clang Clang Clang
Engine:  Vrrrroooom, VroooooOOOm
 
Genius!

hydrargyrum

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2013, 01:17:04 PM »
Since I'm prone to make an ass of myself, let me just add that I have a great deal of respect for folks like Austin who have an independent perspective that allows them to consider work such as this, and appreciate the lack of easily identified musical conventions. The fact that he references Bukowski in his profile suggests to me that we'd likely be able to enjoy each other's company along with a strong beer.  I'd like to make the world a little stranger for everyone, but my own bad sense of taste just doesn't gel with this.  Not that my opinion is worth much, but I'd suggest Ray Johnson as an example of truly good avant garde art/performance art.

darkstar01

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2013, 01:47:57 PM »
certainly no hard feelings, kevin. i'll be the first to admit that zorn is more than a bit of an ass, but i have a lot of respect for the guy because he's had a pretty profound impact on an art form that i'm pretty into. and for the record, his music is all over the place. i guarantee you could find something of his you like.

hydrargyrum

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #28 on: June 06, 2013, 02:20:00 PM »
Allow me to offer my respect once more to Austin.  There aren't many places on the web I could have this sort of conversation regarding art and music that wouldn't degenerate into name calling and petty attacks.  My instinct is to still dislike Zorn, but I'm more convinced than ever to give him a shot to show me what I'm missing.

David Houck

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Cobra (Zorn) improv
« Reply #29 on: June 06, 2013, 05:41:25 PM »
Here's my take, for whatever it may add to the conversation, on the video that I linked.
 
I watched the whole thing.  For a long time there was this idea that nothing was happening that made much sense.  After I while I was starting to pay attention to the musicians themselves; they were engaged.  By the time the piece was over, I had gotten it.
 
The musicians had a seemingly impossible task; not only were they to respond when pointed to, within the parameters of the cue cards and other signals, but they had to do so within the context of what the other musicians had and were doing.  In other words, you didn't just play some random notes when the conductor pointed to you; the musicians were trying to work together to create some kind of musical statement.
 
And in my view, they did.  It seemed to me, as I recall from the one time I watched it, that most of the performance was kinda preparatory; the musicians feeling their way forward, trying to get some context.  But as some point as the performance headed into the final stages, the musicians seemed to lock into each other; there was a flow, a movement, I felt like I was being taken some place.  The musicians had found a context within which to say something together.
 
That's my take.  I was pretty much unimpressed for quite a while; but by the end I kinda caught on to what they were trying to do, and there was a recognition of what they had achieved.