More Ignorance

[rockbassist]

I just had an interesting converstion with another bass player. At first, he sounded reasonably intelligent. Then he asked me to sell him my Epic 5 String. When he offered me $900 for it I laughed. I asked him to double that offer and I would consider it. He then went on to tell me that for $1,800 he could buy a Sadowsky which is in his opinion is much better than any Alembic ever made. He also told me that Epics and Excels are basically the Alembic equivalent of Made in Mexico Fenders. Needless to say, I quickly ended the conversation.
 
(Message edited by rockbassist on August 26, 2008)

[811952]

There are people who will never appreciate an Alembic.  Then there are those who will.
 
John

[lbpesq]

And the Dino and 308 GT were the Ferrari equivalent of MIM Fenders.  Of course they still kicked butt on the top of the line Oldsmobile of the day.  
 
Bill, tgo

[eligilam]

I know Jason Newsted moved from Alembic to Sadowsky a while ago.  It wasn't his little brother you were talking to, was it?
 
The Mexican Fender analogy could hold water:  A Series II is to an Epic what a Custom Shop Jazz is to a MIM Jazz.  It's all a matter of algebra...as long as the equation  
 
MIM Fender = Epic
 
is not what they were driving at, I could see their point.  Personally, I say that
 
2(Custom Fender) = 3.2(Epic) = (Series II)/14

[funkyjazzjunky]

What bolt-on neck bass compares to a set-neck (or a neck-thru)?

[eligilam]

My opening exclusatory statement is:  Nothing compares to Alembic.  
 
However, past that, some decent bolt-ons exist, such as Lakland, Bee, Ritter, F-Bass, and Wal.  I'd probably take one of those over a Carvin neck-thru.

[dfung60]

It's hard to judge what the right bass is for any particular person.  
 
With all due respect to Roger Sadowsky (who seems like a very honest and nice guy), it's a little hard for me to understand exactly how he's developed that cachet that his brand has.  His top line stuff (which I believe is much more than $1800) are pretty much kit guitars with a really good setup.  Sadowsky doesn't manufacture the bodies, necks, electronics, or hardware.  They also don't finish the instruments.  They spec the parts or select off the shelf stuff, assemble it, then do a high end fret job.  Customization is pretty limited, although I don't think that's a problem for his market.  The pickups are Duncans and EMGs; even the famous Sadowsky active EQ has always been built by Aguilar Electronics.
 
Nothing can be more important than setup and QC, but I think you're truly paying a huge premium for that in a Sadowsky vs. a Fender or Musicman.
 
On the flip side, everything on all the Alembics is totally Alembic (with the exception of the tuning heads).  All the woodwork is done by hand in the Santa Rosa factory (Sadowsky stuff is produced by a CNC contractor), as is the finishing.  And everything is customizable even on Epics as well, so you can spec string spacing or scale length as a matter of course.  Of course, that new Epic costs a lot more than $1800 new, and a lot more than a Sadowsky too.
 
If you're ordering a 34 4-string Epic then it's not clear that you're getting any value from the fact that you could have ordered it as a 33 scale with wide spacing, so perhaps that's money wasted.  And ultimately, if the sound you want is like a J-Bass, then having Alembic pickups may not be a win either.  But, I wonder whether a prospective Sadowsky owner would think of a USA Jazz or similar bass with a $400 setup...
 
There are a number of boutique brands that are like this - I believe Lakland is basically the same sort of company, focusing on instrument designs and final assembly but farming out all the core manufacturing.
 
David Fung

[82daion]

It's just a case of different strokes. While my Series I was entirely worth it to me, it has a number of features that might be entirely offputting to people used to other styles of basses.  
 
The critical statement here is in his opinion. While it's certainly ill-founded, it would have been more productive to tactfully educate him than to walk away and then put him up for collective judgment on an Internet forum, in my opinion. I'm sure you would see similar responses to a similarly ill-founded statement on a Sadowsky forum if you replaced a few names and models. ;-)  
 
As an aside, as long as the neck joint is solidly constructed, it shouldn't matter terribly much as long as the rest of the bass is constructed to a similar standard. There are some times when I prefer the more open, less compressed sound of a bass with a bolt-on neck, especially for slap playing. And I'd say that Ritter, etc. are a little better than decent. ;-)

[ajdover]

In response to David's excellent post, I'd offer the following.
 
I own a Sadowsky Vintage 4, a relatively early Lakland 4-94, a '73 Fender Jazz Bass (modified with a Badass II Bridge, Seymour Duncan Pickups, Schaller Tuners, and a J-Retro preamp), and an '05 MIA Fender Jazz Bass Deluxe.  I also own five Alembics (a SC Sig Std, a Dragon's Wing, two Essences, and a Europa; my Series II Entwistle replica is nearing completion).  
 
David is absolutely right when he states that it's difficult to judge which bass is the right one for any one person.  This being said, I can say that the Sadowsky, Lakland, and my modified '73 Jazz are heads and shoulders above my MIA Jazz Deluxe.  It's not that the MIA JD is a bad instrument, it isn't.  Tonally, to me, the Sad, Lakie, and the '73 are just better.  
 
Now, is the Sad all that it's cracked up to be?  Yep, it is, for me at least.  Regardless of how it's made, it has that great Fender tone down in spades.  The workmanship is flawless, the fretwork immaculate, and the setup perfect.  IMHO, Roger took the Fender model and took it to the next level.  And live, it just kills in the mix.  I was a naysayer until I tried it (many had told me about this and I was skeptical).  It really is all that, to me anyway.
 
The Lakie, well let's just say it's like a Jazz Bass and a Stingray got together and decided to raise a family.  The 4-94 is the result, and it's amazing.  It's been my go to bass in the band I've been playing with recently, even more than my Alembics.  To me, that instrument is definitely worth every penny.  The coil tap on the the Lakie's MM-style bridge pickup should be standard on every MM product if you ask me - an extremely versatile feature IME.  The neck is just about perfect for me too - thin in depth, and only slightly wider than a Jazz bass at the nut (I prefer Jazz style necks for the most part).  Build quality is flawless, as is the finish (mine has a beautiful quilt maple top over an ash body).
 
David's right - one is paying a large premium for a Sad or Lakie when compared to an Alembic given the construction of the instrument and the methods employed.  In the end only the individual can judge whether it's worth it.  For me it was.  My Sad I bought new; my Lakie I bought used for about $1450.  Best $1450 I've ever spent bass wise (with the exception of the Burkha King, of course).
 
BTW, the pickups in my Lakie are Barts; the Sad has Sadowsky humcancellers.  Lakland recently started making their own pickups and preamps as well, and that's what they use in their instruments for the most part now.  Sadowsky has installed Nordstrands in some models too.
 
To hear the my Sadowsky in action, go to www.kennyhuffman.net, and click on the link for the song/video Magic Street.  The tone was mixed more subdued than I liked (I'd have preferred more of a Geddy-like tone), but it really came through in the mix anyway.  To hear the Lakie, go to http://www.myspace.com/arcticfoxvideos and click on the videos for Workhorse.
 
Alan

[terryc]

rockbassist - maybe the guy was a wind up merchant looking for an argument or maybe he is just plain stupid in coming out with statements like that.
Me being absolutely baised towards Alembic ever since I set eyes and ears on one over 30 years ago and owning one for 10 years the bass in front is an Alembic, nothing else compares at all..but as I said I am totally biased(more than a multi tube amplifier lol)

[rockbassist]

I wasn't realy offended by his opinion that Sadowsky was better than Alembic. We all have our own opinions. I own some vintage Fenders that I love. I just didn't like the comparison to Made in Mexico Fenders. I understand the point that he was trying to make and I realize that Epics and Excels are at the lower end of the Alembic scale but I don't think it's fair to compare a $5,000 custom made bass to a $250 assembly line one.

[lbpesq]

The comparison isn't that offensive to me IF you put things in perspective and realize that the El Cheapo Alembic is still a far better instrument than the top-of-the-(assembly)line Fender.
 
Bill, tgo

[white_cloud]

Excuse me??? At least the Epic and Excel models are original designs (as all Alembics are)- last time I looked sadowsky basses were basically a high end fender jazz copy!!!
 
Yes, they are very good..but a high end copy and a cheapo copy have one thing in common - they arent original!
 
John.

[dfung60]

rockbassist - I agree that his comparison to the Mexi-Fenders was off the mark.  
 
The funny thing about this is that if he bought a Sadowsky for $1800, it would almost certainly not the the USA model, even if it were used.  They have a Metro line which is assembled in Japan, but I wouldn't be surprised if they were sourcing parts from China, Korea or elsewhere in the Far East.  The comparison to a Mexi-Fender is more apt for a Sadowsky Metro or Lakland Skyline.  
 
And, of course, Alembic doesn't have any equivalent to that.
 
I don't know how big Sadowsky's shop is these days, but for many years it was just a small handful of people - maybe 5 highly-skilled builders.  So, when you bought a Sadowsky bass (now, a NYC Sadowsky) there was more than a good chance that Roger was the last guy to tweak something before you got it.  
 
Every company goes through these phases of nurture and growth.  I stopped by the Seymour Duncan plant in Santa Barbara just to see if I could get a tour once many years ago, around the time that the Antiquities were released.  It's pretty impressive to see all the people winding bobbins out on the production floor, but the really impressive part is when we wandered back to their Custom Shop lab and you see Seymour himself matching coils with the two CS guys.  This wasn't a special order for Jeff Beck - they were putting them in Antiquities boxes.  I'm sure it's not like that now, but back then, I don't think you could do better than that.  
 
David Fung

[ajdover]

To White Cloud:
 
No, the designs aren't original as far as Sadowskys are concerned.  But you have to remember that Roger began by modifying Fenders.  His whole intent was to make them better, and as a Sadowsky and Fender Owner I'd say he's succeeded, in spades.  In my view, guitar and bass manufacturers have been ripping off Leo Fender's designs to some extent ever since he developed the Telecaster, P-Bass, and Stratocaster.  And that's not a bad thing in my view - it's says a lot that Leo got so much right that other builders would copy him, and the next generation is taking it further.  Without Leo, there would arguably be no Alembic, so my hat's off to Leo, wherever he is.
 
David,
 
      I've been to the Sadowsky shop - it occupies space on the fifth floor of a an older warehouse building right next to the Brooklyn Bridge in Brooklyn, NY (20 Jay Street).  From what I could tell, it's not very big, and I didn't see everyone who worked there.  I have, though, on occasion received emails from Roger, as well as responses from him directly on several online bass forums.  If you go to sadowsky.com I think there's some info on there that speaks to who's working there now.
 
Alan