Author Topic: Thoughts on the Short Scale bass  (Read 1828 times)

gtrguy

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« on: October 09, 2015, 12:01:23 PM »
I personally think that a short scale bass is inherently a worse sounding bass, but that with the Alembic series electronics, they manage to 'overcome' that.  
 
I have owned short scale vintage Gibson basses and did not care for the tone much. I have also played several short scale Fenders and did not like them. Of course, the vintage Fenders were considered more 'student models' back in the day.
 
I am curious on what others think...
 
I love the Alembic short scale series basses and think they gig well. They are so easy to play! I pretty much set the controls one way when gigging, after dialing in a good tone for the venue.  
 
 
Of course, I also think that a 85 pound Ampeg Classic tube bass amp could probably 'overcome' many tone weaknesses in a bass too, but my back says ?no dice.?

rustyg61

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #1 on: October 09, 2015, 01:22:39 PM »
Being the owner of both a 34 Series II & a short scale SCSD with Signature Electronics, I have to say they both sound AMAZING! Each has their own unique sound, but both are unmistakably Alembic. The SCSD is so fun to play! After playing the long scale, it feels like a toy, but in mean that in a good way! It's like driving a small sports car after cruising in a Cadillac! The Series II definitely has more bottom end than the SCSD, but the SCSD has more bottom end than my '63 reissue Fender Jazz, so it is not lacking in bottom at all. I was afraid I might not want to play my SCSD after getting the Series II, but that is not the case. My S II is my main bass now, but I really look forward to the songs I play the SCSD on at our gigs. It's a nice change.
Rusty
2011 SCSD
2014 "Blue Orca" Series II Europa
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_blueorca.html

hieronymous

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #2 on: October 09, 2015, 02:59:06 PM »
I love my early-'70s Gibson Triumph bass with flats for an old-school sound: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9ti2RRVm44U
 
I do think that there is something special about regular 34 scale basses - nothing like hammering away on a P-Bass or Rickenbacker with a pick and roundwounds!

hammer

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #3 on: October 09, 2015, 09:45:29 PM »
Different maybe...worse in no way! I have also owned short scale Gibson basses (I still own one because we play a few Cream tunes and my Alembics just won't making farting sounds) and from what I have learned its not the scale but the quality of the bass.
 
I currently own a short scale SC, a medium scale Signature custom, and a long scale Europa. Although they all have they own personal characteristics, I certainly wouldn't say that the sort scale is inferior to the others, just different.

edwin

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #4 on: October 09, 2015, 11:52:34 PM »
My Starfire (with Alembic guts, of course) is my #1 bass. I love short scale. In no way is it inherently worse. I would suggest that basing that idea on your experience on Gibsons and Fenders would lead to such a conclusion, though.

keith_h

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2015, 05:55:37 AM »
My main basses for the past 10+ years have been short scale small standard bodies. My Hagstrom 8 is also a short scale. I've never had any issues with bass on any of them. For the Alembics I stick with the string gauges they came with. For the Hagstrom the sets I use have 45-100 for the low octave. I think sometimes problems come from trying to use to light of a string. On a short scale you don't need a super light string to get a good feel so requires a shift in thought from a long scale bass.  
 
Keith

rv_bass

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2015, 06:53:18 AM »
I have a Starfire short scale and Orion 34 scale.  They are two very different sounding basses, but both sound great.  I use them for different situations as needed.  I prefer the short scale.  I find it easier and more comfortable to play, especially in the upper registers (due to neck angle and positioning) and lower registers (1st through 3rd position) due to spacing, and my short scale Starfire is in no way lacking in low end.

cozmik_cowboy

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #7 on: October 10, 2015, 06:26:18 PM »
Yes, a Mustang is a perhaps a tad lacking, and a stock EB-0 sounds like farting into a pillow.
 
Phil's pre-Alembicized EB-0 with Bi-Sonics, etc., however, produced the Mamma Tried on Skullf**k, which is the best bass tone ever recorded.
 
Edwin's Starfire sounds like godsex.
 
It ain't the scale that's the problem........
 
Peter
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ed_zeppelin

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2015, 11:24:40 AM »
I found out only recently that Guild used Hagstrom pickups in a lot of their basses (including Phil's and Jack Cassidy's, before Wickershams were unleashed on them).  
 
Note the picture of Phil with his original - pre-Alembicized - Starfire (and get a haircut, hippie hairstyle), with pickups and bridge by Hagstrom:
 
http://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/guild/bass/Starfire.php
 
Note the similarities - and one glaring difference - with Hagstrom's own version (that I would kill to play):
 
http://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/hagstrom/bass/Concord.php
 
Hagstroms just knock me out. I can recall the exact details of every one I've ever worked on, because it's such a thrill to pop open a case and see a Hagstrom, especially if they've got that mother-of-toilet-seat vibe going on.  
 


 
 
One particularly strange one had switches instead of knobs,  
 


 
 
and the volume control was a slider that followed the contour of the pickguard. When I took the pickguard off, there was a length of copper foil flush-mounted to the body just inside the boundary of the pickguard, with some kind of stuff half-silvered onto it (graphite paint or something) so that one end of the copper strip was completely covered and gradually faded to nothing at the other end. Who thinks like that? (Same principle as a Morley pedal, except instead of direct electrical contact, the Morley does it with light on a half-silvered card that is completely opaque at one end and reflective at the other.)
 
I edited this paragraph out, but now that it looks like this damn post turned into a novel anyway, I'll stick it back in.
 
The technique of half-silvering comes from a magic technique invented by Robert Houdin (from *who Houdini derived the name) so astoundingly popular that he became the most famous magician in the world, mostly based on this trick. This trick stopped a war - between Arabs - true story:
 
http://magic.about.com/od/magichistory/a/rhoudin.htm
 
A pretty girl became first a corpse, then a skeleton and finally a ghost - in full view of the audience the whole time - over the course of HOURS.  
 
The young woman was on the side of the stage, facing center. The stage backdrop was black velvet, designed to suck up light. The key to the trick is a long pane of half-silvered glass, in which one end is completely silvered (a mirror, in other words) and the other end is clear, with an incredibly fine transition along the way.  
 
The pane crossed center stage at a precise angle so that the mirror reflected the (well-lit) subject in the wings, and as the glass was moved forward and backward on that plane, she would gradually disappear, quickly change costumes and gradually reappear at center stage. Remember that the trick was done in lantern light.
 
Okay, back to Hagstroms.
 
Hagstrom manufactured accordians in Sweden since 1925 (please don't hold it against them) and invented their own pickup system for electric accordions when everybody else (I.e. Americans and Italians) were either working with microphones or John Hammond's organ innovations. So Hagstrom created the best accordion pickup in the world at the time, in between chasing reindeer and blondes or whatever they did during those long, cold winters.
 


 
 
When the market for flashy Swedish accordions collapsed (who could have seen that comin'?) Hagstrom began making their own guitars, and supplied parts to other manufacturers.
 
Here's a picture of Jimi Hendrix playing a Hagstrom 8-string bass (I believe it's strung right-handed, because he could play either way, but no way of telling). Hendrix fans note he recorded a number of songs with this bass. I had a list somewhere ...
 


 
 
Ampeg AES-1 (and very cool lid) on the left. The other is a mystery.
 
Hagstrom made a lot of hardware for other companies, particularly Guild, but also Burns, Selmer, Goya, Gretsch and Baldwin (Willie Nelson's famous guitar Trigger has a Baldwin pickup, made by Hagstrom). The Burns Bison guitar isn't called that because of the horns, but because originally he used Hagstrom bisonic pickups.
 
In fact, considering the topic, here is Burns' first guitar, a short-scale Jazz guitar with single coil pickups of unknown provenance, since Burns didn't start making their own pickups until later, I believe.
 


 
 
Okay, we did Starfires, a nice rant about those wacky Scandinavians at Hagstrom, Jimi, Willie, mother-of-toilet-seat, magic tricks ... I'm done.
 
 
 
* I am convinced that the word 'whom' is a plot to make us sound like English butlers. - Mark Twain

bassilisk

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #9 on: October 11, 2015, 11:56:41 AM »
To the OP, I like playing short scale basses. I had an EB3 which was fun, but yes the sound was really limited due to the pickups. I also had a LP Triumph - much better tone. Leave it to Les to come up with passive low-impedance pickups.  
 
I finally got a chance to try a SC with Signature guts and I nearly laughed out loud when I grabbed the neck. Even after playing tiny Hagstrom necks this was much less than I could cope with. I would have to live with it for weeks and change my playing style to accommodate that tiny thing. I'm sure it sounded amazing, but there was much less meat than I could navigate. If Mr Clarke's was anything remotely similar to this, then I am ever more blown away by what he was able to do...  
These are my personal observations.
 
Having said that, there are short scale basses that get it done. Never tried/heard one but Birdsong is highly regarded for excellent quality short scales.
 
As to Hagstroms, I am lucky enough to own an early 60's Coronado IV loaded with original Bisonics and complete with push buttons and a semi-circular volume lever protected by the towel rack. It's 34 scale, very easy to play but pretty hefty to wear. And these pickups do sound awesome.  
 

ed_zeppelin

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2015, 12:08:26 PM »
Hate to hog the thread (if it ain't way too late for that), but when I was looking at the pic of Phil playing the original Starfire:
 
http://www.vintageguitarandbass.com/guild/bass/Starfire.php
 
 I noticed on the right side of that page a time-line of improvements Guild made to the Starfires after numbers one and two (I think) were Alembicized.  
 
Note the larger headstock. Ha ha, I've never noticed that. Now what does that look like to you?
 


 
 
 (They missed the opportunity for dummy dummy pickups, as far as I'm concerned.)
 
It would be interesting for word to come down from on high about this vital matter. That's pretty much everything I know about Guild, but what would it be like to rip them babies out of there and install a QUADROPHONIC system (through f-holes, no less!)
 
One thing about that era in Guitarmaking: Everybody stole from everybody else, with the notable exceptions of Hagstrom, Rickenbacker and Alembic.
 
I'm sort of in awe of Hagstroms, but in the same way I like shirts that come with a volume control, Jerry Garcia ties and stuff like this:
 


   
 


 
 
It would be interesting to get the real dirt from the Wickershams (I can see why they avoid f-holes, that's for sure).

ed_zeppelin

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #11 on: October 11, 2015, 03:07:12 PM »
Hey, that's it!  Well, almost. I remembered the buttons (I even included a pic of those accordion-style buttons), but the volume slider was exactly like that one, but lower, on the edge of the pickguard. No towel bar that I remember, but it was like opening a guitar case and pulling out something The Jetsons would have rocked out on.
 
I think the one I ran into was transitional period thing. Like Hagstrom had an idea of the week contest, and somewhere in there they went from switches, sliders and accordion buttons to Gibson style pots, pickups etc.  
 
Makes you want to take off that pickguard and see what's under there, don't it?
 
Ha ha, here I am on Alembic's site, absolutely lusting after a Swedish hybrid between a bass and a jukebox. I need to go listen to ABBA just to shake the jitters. Can you hear the drums, Fernando?

benson_murrensun

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2015, 06:14:41 AM »
I've played only 34 and 35 scale basses, so that's what I am used to. My wife began playing bass about 6 years ago; she's 5'4 and has small hands. Once she tried short-scale basses it was all over; she won't play anything else. Noting that Alembics are usually fairly heavy, she has found Birdsong basses to be everything she prefers. IMHO short-scale basses are not inherently inferior, sound wise. Sometimes they sound bigger and fuller than longer scale basses.

811952

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2015, 06:38:13 AM »
ESP and Ibanez build some exceptional shorter-than-short-scale basses. I think they're 28 scale, and I've been tempted to pick one up. They sound great, imho.
 
John

bassilisk

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Thoughts on the Short Scale bass
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2015, 09:31:28 AM »
ed zeppelin - I've been under that guard. Everything is mounted to it in typical Hagstrom fashion. The push buttons have mechanical linkages to the electronic connections. They are some serious analog solutions and quite elegant in their way.