Is my rig to weird?

[gregduboc]

Hey guys, hope everyone is well. I had a gig last night and I was wondering what would you say about the way I set up my rig . Let me explain.
 
First, this is how I normally set it up:
Bass (Alembic Rogue)-> Effects (Eventide H9) -> Preamp (Alembic F-1X)-> D.I. (Avalon U5).  
Then from the Avalon I send one signal to the engineer and the other goes to a second preamp and cabinets (or a combo, I usually use my Markbass Alain Caron 500W combo)
 
Now, my logic behind it:
Over the years, I ended up setting my rig like this for a simple reason. This way, I get to send to the house engineer the exact tone I like, with the EQ and effects I need/like. Then, for the stage sound (signal path after the Avalon), I can control the stage EQ with my second preamp so I can cut/boost anything I need to match the stage acoustics, without fooling around with the EQ I send to the engineer.
To make it more simple: I first create the bass tone/sound I like with the first preamp, then I send my bass sound to the engineer and to the stage: The engineer then compensates the EQ to match the venue's acoutics and I compensate the acoustics for the stage/band.
 
 
Does this make sense to any of you? Using two EQs, one for the bass tone itself (so you know the engineer gets the tone you want) and one so you can match the acoustics of the stage to also match the tone you want?  
 
Of course, if I had one engineer that was always with me and knew how I liked my sound, he could set it up at the mixing console for me and I could send it flat to him, but as I get to play different places with different people many times, and many of this guys are not very capable (to be honest), this is the best way I found to get a consistent tone for my bass.  
 
 
 
I've never seen anyone doing this, so I wanted to know what you think.  
I have to point out that every sound person always compliments my bass sound, so it is working  
 
 
Greg

[811952]

I like to give the house engineer a clean, flat signal. He's got to make it fit with the whole package in a room that surely sounds a lot different than the stage in front of my amp.
 
Several years ago I got to see Dream Theater open for YES. John Myung's bass was invisible in the mix, with the exception of chinky-chink highs and an indistinct rumble. I had a long chat with the FOH engineer after the show, mostly about his frustrations with John Myung insisting on sending a pre-eq'd signal to the board in the interest of keeping his sound intact, and thus not being able to give it any definition in a large hall. So That's something to consider.
 
John

[keith_h]

I always send a post effects, pre-q to the board whether I'm playing the bass or running sound.  Contrary to what some folks think sending a post-eq signal does not guarantee your sound will be heard by the audience and frequently it is just the opposite. As John said pre-eq is the best way to get a good sound out in the audience since the engineer has the full signal to work with. While you can cut frequencies you can't add them if they aren't there. You also run into cases where the musician decides to tweak something throwing off the FOH mix.  
 
Keith

[StephenR]

I also use a U5 to send my signal to the house but pre-eq. Any EQ on my amp is used sparingly. All the engineers I work with prefer having a flat signal sent to the house for them to work with. I don't use effects but if did I would have them put a mic on my amp and then blend that with the flat signal from my U5 so the flat and the effected signal are always controllable by the engineer.
 
On the other hand, if what you are doing is working for you and the engineers you work with are happy with the result I am not sure why you are asking for opinions.
 
One thing I don't understand about your approach, though, is how you determine the sound that you send to the house if it is different than the sound you set up for your amp on stage.

[gregduboc]

John, Keith, thanks for the reply!
I completely understand your points, and appreciate your opinions.  
 
The John Myung's issue really brings up my point, though: how does some one like him (or Billy Sheehan, for example, that has a very specific sound) should send his signal to the FOH mix? Does he simply have to completely trust every engineer that he has to work with?
 
I'm looking for some opinions here because this is a subject I don't understand much.
 
Do you understand my point? If John Myung does that, it probably works for him in most venues, right? It wouldn't make sense to keep an approach that doesn't work.
 
Thanks for the help!

[sonicus]

I like to have the FOH person come on stage to hear my stage sound and tone . If they have the ears and skill with supportive equipment the listeners might get what you intend.  
     I  supply the FOH person with a PRE  EQ  signal with balanced line level  AES PIN 2 HOT DI . I tell them make sure that their interface to me has PHANTOM POWER OFF .  Depending on the DI signal coupling circuit design the phantom power could damage your equipment as was the case in the DI output design of the SWR GRAND PRIX preamps. This problem has been documented on various  electronics internet blogs. I recently repaired such a unit and found a damaged Texas Instruments operational amplifier TLO72 ( dual op-amp) that was fried from a 48 volt phantom power interface. The op-amp was the socketed type and when I replaced it the unit was ready show-time again .  
   
   Better safe then sorry .  
 
     Wolf

[sonicus]

PRE eq = before your settings . POST eq = your settings .

[gregduboc]

Stephenr, thanks for the reply!  
The mic in front of the amp is not an option at the venues I play. No one gives me that luxurious possibility here in Brazil hehe
 
The reason I'm bringing this up is because I want to know if what I'm doing has a better or different alternative. It works, but I like to aquire knowledge and perhaps keep learning new things! I'm always looking for improvement.  
Playing a Fender works for me and the engineers are happy. But playing an Alembic makes them happier!  
 
As for your question regarding how I determine my sound:
I take my rig to the studio and work the EQ to match my taste regardless of where I'll play. I set it up in a neutral environment.
Then, that sound/eq is what I send to both the venue's engineer and my stage amp. In a perfect scenario, I don't touch my amp EQ. But if the stage is boomy, for example, I get to take down some lower frequencies without interfering with my original tone that is sent to the FOH mix.
 
(Message edited by gregduboc on April 08, 2016)

[gregduboc]

Wolf, thanks!
 
That's a good approach. Thanks for letting me know. That's kind of the approach I do with my rig, sending them how I want to sound and usually they are successful in reproducing the sound over the PAs.  
But to be honest, your solution is much simpler and will probably work much better regarding what I learned from the other comments!  
 
And good info regarding phantom power as well.
 
One question though... What would you do if the engineer doesn't come listen to you or if he, lets suppose, has a bad ear? Just out of curiosity!  
 
(Message edited by gregduboc on April 08, 2016)

[rustyg61]

The only problem I see with your setup is that you are taking the output of your first preamp to the input of your second preamp which could overdrive it & cause distortion.  
 
I completely agree with your desire to have your own seperate EQ for what you hear on stage that you can tweak without affecting the PA mix. I do the same thing, but I send the output of my F-2B to a Radial Engineering ProD2 DI then the balanced out of the DI to the PA & unbalanced out to my SF-2 then to my power amp. So I can make adjustments on the SF-2 to color what I hear on stage without affecting the signal I send to the PA.  
 
Like Wolf, I also have brought our Soundman on stage to hear the sound I'm getting so he can match it in the PA.

[sonicus]

Greg , your question is worth gold ! A very good question .  
 
I have had great results  with FOH folks and awful results as well . I have learned from past experience to have my stage volume and sound as is needed. In the 1970's I had a really bad experience at a long gone venue called the  KEYSTONE PALO ALTO  where I was told to bring what turned out to be way under powered stage equipment and they would run me to  the FOH system. That turned out to be  BIG MUD with a time delay slap back , just awful . I really had a difficult time with that and it was going to be broadcast over the radio as well , I was really worried what it  all really sounded like  but actually ended up better then expected , the anticipation of hearing the recording was quite gripping .  
The important part in a large venue or at an outside festival for me is hearing my self with the other musicians , my blend onstage. if I have other thoughts go through my mind and distractions like worrying about anything else while I am concentrated on what we are doing on the stage my and our performance could suffer.  Therefore if the FOH folks are not willing to give you what you think you want before the performance ; if you have road crew person , friend , girl friend  , wife or management person who can speak in your interest during the performance who knows your sound and has good people skills and can express them selves technically that can help . Sometimes it just is what it is , and there is nothing else to do .    
 
Wolf

[gtrguy]

FOH Sound People are like unto God and must be worshiped accordingly.  
 
Tis like the old intro to the TV show, 'The Outer Limits'. For the next 30 minutes we control the vertical, the horizontal, the sound, and your bladder. Do not get up for chips and beer or we will zap your brain with a dork-ray that will make thee exceedingly stupid.
 
Bring them offerings of food and beer, maybe they will take a liking to you. Ask them what instrument they play, for they all doth play an instrument and are frustrated they are not playing it at that moment, and showing thou that they are better than you.  
 
Above all, do not piss them off or try to tell them their trade, or thou will suffer accordingly.

[sonicus]

David , I agree !   Nice communication and  treats , all with a smile .  
 
 Wolf

[keith_h]

One question though... What would you do if the engineer doesn't come listen to you or if he, lets suppose, has a bad ear? Just out of curiosity!
 
If the soundman has a bad ear then getting your individual sound out front is the least of your worries.  
 
If they don't want or have time to listen to your stage sound you need to keep in mind they are getting paid to make you sound good to the audience. While you always have the chance to run into a real jerk most of these folks honestly want things to go well. Remember their job depends upon making the audience happy just as it is your job too. If you want to do it like the A list musicians/bands then you can always hire your own engineer to handle sound at your gigs. Even if, for some reason, the venue won't let them run the desk they can sit there and tell the house engineer what adjustments need to be made. An alternative is to have someone you trust sit  at the desk as a liaison but they better be technical enough to communicate the sound needs and not someones girl friend (been on the receiving end of that one).  
 
Keith

[gtrguy]

Yes, all humor aside, sound persons want you to look and sound good.
 
A good place to start with them is to ask them first what you can do to help them get a good sound on the bass. They probably know their sound system better than you, and are quite busy with other priorities, like getting the singers to sound great.
 
I try to talk to them during a break to see if something needs to change on stage. I also make a point of thanking them after the show, for theirs is a often thankless task and they will probably be there after the band (and everyone else) is long gone to pack it all up. You may well be coming back to that same venue at some point, and they could well remember how great your group is to work with and try extra hard for you next time, too!