Author Topic: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines  (Read 2991 times)

bsee

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #60 on: October 04, 2008, 12:46:14 AM »
Devon, you're right that guitars aren't specifically excluded as a class because they are guitars, but Hal's information is completely bogus.  There is, in fact, a specific size rule that, if applied, would exclude all full-sized guitars and basses.  No one has a right to carry a guitar onto an airplane unless they buy a ticket for it.  You may be allowed to do so, but it isn't because you have the right.  To suggest that you do and should stand your ground is pretty outrageous.
 
As far as Brad's attitude is concerned, I'm right there with him.  The answers to your question happened a long time ago.  There's not too many people with experience because most don't try once they understand the rules and that it is up to the judgment of the flight crew.  This thread is going to live on this website beyond your interest in the matter and shouldn't misguide someone who reads it next year.

lbpesq

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #61 on: October 04, 2008, 09:27:55 AM »
If the airlines tell you you can't carry on your instrument, just show them the piece of paper you downloaded from the internet that says you can.  Boy that will change their tune fast!  This also works with cops on dark middle-of-nowhere highways.  When the cop pulls you over and tells you to get out of the car because he's going to search it, you just show him a copy of the Constitution and tell him the law says he can't search your car.  The officer will then undoubtedly  tell you that he didn't know that was the law, apologize profusely, give you $10,000 for your trouble, and let you go on your way.  
 
And even if the airlines banish your gig-bag protected instrument to the cargo hold, and it gets damaged, I'm sure the company you insure it with won't mind at all that you shipped it in only a gig bag and will be glad to pay off.
 
 
yea, right
 
 
Bill, tgo

juggernaught

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #62 on: October 04, 2008, 09:56:51 AM »
OK, enough of the defeatist attitude: I think we get it already.  Flying with your bass has risks.  But it's rather pointless to dwell on this whatever can go wrong, will nonsense.  Yes, the airline staff have the last say, yes you can get your bass damaged, yes, it will be your responsibility in the end, yes yes yes we get your point.
HOWEVER!  If one was wanting to try to carry on, knowing the rules *can* help you in negotiating with the airline staff in your favor.  They can misunderstand the rules themselves but are also capable of being reasonable people.  Having a note relating your situation and the rules (on your ticket even) can only help you in that situation.  This is *very* useful advice.  And yes, we get how they have the final say and can be as unreasonable as they'd like.  But giving advice on how to minimize risk when you choose to carry-on is harmful?  Come-on people!  Think outside your own risk assessment here and let people decide for themselves.

juggernaught

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #63 on: October 04, 2008, 10:07:09 AM »
Also, for the sake of future generations, it may be best if someone compiled an objective summary of what we discussed here (and perhaps what was on the vic site, other sources): the different ways to bring your bass on the plane (carry on, gate check, etc), risks, rights, and most importantly *methods* for minimizing those risk to put on the FAQs.  This thread has become far too subjective to be really useful.  Heck I'd do it too if I could get further cooperation and research on this subject from members on the methods.  We definitely have enough on the risks and lack of rights, so we could stop there.  Just saying don't do it isn't enough.

lbpesq

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #64 on: October 04, 2008, 11:00:53 AM »
Devon:
 
You are correct.  Just saying don't do it isn't enough.  How about don't do it unless you are willing to sacrifice your instrument?  Hey, that's the answer!  Hal, you'll love this one.  If the airline says no, pull a Hendrix/Townsend - smash up the instrument right there in the terminal as a sacrifice to the R&R Gods.  It will then certainly be reduced in size sufficiently to fit on-board!  Why leave destruction of your axe to the cargo handlers when you can do it yourself! (And some people win in Vegas, but I wouldn't count on it, either).
 
Bill, tgo

hendixclarke

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #65 on: October 04, 2008, 11:05:51 AM »
Stove gloves off...
 
For the lack of trust in authorities, Bill I suggest, you NOT attempt to board flights with your guitar(s).
For, you are apparently, the only smart guy in the room.  
 
I am sorry, but correct me if I am wrong, I had not read your experiences (pleasant or otherwise) attempting to board any air flight... (true?)  
 
Therefore, you missed this opportunity to share from this perspective, which is mst valuable.
 
Cops in a alley... (You are reaching and using fear to fighten me, oh me oh mie...)
 
I would bet money, this is a clue to your own personal despicable prejudices on many other issues, which I would dare nor care to explore.  
 
The only reason I am wasting time with your negative vibes, is to provide a mirror of your own values and soul, which I whole-heartily disagree.
 
I shared my values, based upon my personal experiences, and you offered nothing but hypotheticals and negative answerers and frankly
without direct insight and experiences.
 
We all must do our jobs correctly and professionally regarless of our trade. To serve people with honor and respect, is exactly what we get as the reward. Serve others, as you would wish to be served. This is so simple.
 
With answers like your's, the measure of a half full or half full glass, you neither have the glass or the water to even measure.
 
You want positive, be positive, it's this simple.
Take it, however you want it Bill.

lbpesq

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #66 on: October 04, 2008, 11:28:54 AM »
Hal:
 
You wrote:  
 
I am sorry, but correct me if I am wrong, I had not read your experiences (pleasant or otherwise) attempting to board any air flight... (true?).... I shared my values, based upon my personal experiences, and you offered nothing but hypotheticals and negative answerers and frankly without direct insight and experiences.
 
If you refer to my above post of 10/1, you will read:  
 
On my last trip with the Further, they let me bring it on the outbound flight, but made me gate check it on the way back. My advice is to try your darnedest to carry on the instrument, but be prepared to gate check.
 
I am certainly not the only one here espousing an opinion that the airlines can't be relied on to let you carry on an instrument, though, admittedly, I may be attempting to throw in a little more humor than most.  
 
Under the circumstances, your above post is inaccurate, inappropriate, and uncalled for.  
 
Bill, tgo
 
(Message edited by lbpesq on October 04, 2008)

hendixclarke

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #67 on: October 04, 2008, 12:11:03 PM »
Bill, I am glad you are still amused with the Hendrix guitar sacrifice threads, I left on your mind.
 
Although you are still reaching to find a stable and suitable foundation to find fault with my position on this thread; attempts to introduce another issue(s) from another thread(s) are weaken when the issues are totally different.
 
Its silly Dude, and your execution of funniness is also weak, to say the least.
 
I want to laugh, but I am laughing at how hard you are trying to be funny. LOL!!!  
 
Chill out, go and pick up your Alembic and take your doctor's prescribed med's and be thankful your doctor is also someone you must trust as well.

bsee

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #68 on: October 04, 2008, 01:32:21 PM »
Devon, if knowing the rules is helpful, then you should know the  rules.  The rules that Hal has been espousing are incorrect.  I point to my earlier posts and defy any one of you to locate and publish a link to a single airline regulation that says that an instrument the size of an Alembic guitar or bass is within the carry-on size limitations.  Writing that they are specifically allowed when they aren't isn't sharing experiences.  It isn't helpful knowledge.  It is irresponsible drivel.  If Hal wants to say that he has experience carrying a bass onto a plane, that's great.  If he wants to give tips on sweet-talking flight crews, fine, he'll get no argument from me.
 
My summary of this entire thread as it relates to general air travel reads as follows:
 
=====
The TSA will let you carry a guitar through a security checkpoint.  Their published rules confirm this.
 
The airlines may let you carry your guitar onto the plane, but they may not.  Musical instruments in general are on their lists of allowed items, but all Alembic guitars and basses exceed the size limits for every major airline.  In spite of this, a guitar or bass in a gig bag will fit in almost every planes overhead compartment.  On many planes it could also be stowed in the coat closet.  It's up to the gate staff and flight crew to make a final decision.  
 
In addition to crew attitudes, which airport, which airline, what plane, and how full it is can factor into that decision.  So can the way you behave when trying to get your guitar onto the plane.  One professional musician said that he tries to carry the bag with the neck going up the inside of his arm so that it looks like a briefcase when going through the gate.
 
If your guitar is not allowed into the cabin, you can either gate check it, or not get on the plane.  Reported incidence of damage for gate-checked instruments in gig bags is very high.
 
Calls to airlines generally confirm all of the above and result in equivocal answers.  There are no reports of any such conversation resulting in a guarantee that the guitar would be allowed on board.
=====
 
What additional info would be helpful?  The best thing I could hope for is an escalation path for the request.  One thing is for sure, I wouldn't try any of this at the last minute.

juggernaught

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2008, 01:44:40 PM »
Bob, here it is, in writing:
 
http://www.aa.com/aa/pubcontent/en_US/travelInformation/baggage/carryOnAllowance.jsp
 
Small musical instruments may be carried onboard the aircraft providing they meet existing carry-on size requirements and fit in the overhead bin or under the seat in front of you. Case dimensions may not exceed 45 linear inches (width + length + height), EXCEPT for guitars which may be brought on board only if they can be safely stowed in an overhead bin or approved stowage location in the cabin.
 
So, what I have been trying to tell you is that that there *is* a specific size rule, but guitars are an *exception* to this rule.  Again, that's the rule for AA: if under size or member of exception (which guitars are explicitly stated as being one) then OK, else not OK.  Of course the caveat is the crew has the final say.

lbpesq

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2008, 01:50:33 PM »
Hal:
 
I sincerely apologize if I offended you with my post.  None was intended.  However, I am not reaching to find a stable and suitable foundation to find fault.  You flamed me, specifically stating that I had not posted any personal experience with flying with an instrument upon which to base my opinion.  You invited me to correct you if you were wrong.  You were wrong.  I corrected you.  I didn't have to reach to do it.  It is right there in black and white.  Personal attacks are not appropriate on this site.
 
Bob:  
 
Excellent summary.  May I suggest two more points:  
 
First, in my experience a hard guitar shaped case, like a Les Paul or ES335 style case (or a Calton case) will fit in the overhead of many planes.  I have carried such cases on board in the past.  A rectangular hard case, like a Strat case or standard Alembic case, probably won't fit in the overhead compartment.
 
Secondly, it seems to me that the coat closet storage you refer to has been dissappearing from planes over the last few years.  I remember well being able to sweettalk a compassionate stewardess into letting me put my guitar there in the past.  More recently I found that the planes I fly (both short hop and cross-country) no longer have such a closet.  I don't know if this is due to 9/11 or economic pressures (more seats?), but it does seem to be the case.  
 
Bill, tgo

juggernaught

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #71 on: October 04, 2008, 01:54:30 PM »
coat closet storage depends on the situation.  If you see a person in a wheelchair waiting to get on the plane, then you're screwed.  The rest is dependent on the crew since they use it too.

keith_h

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #72 on: October 04, 2008, 02:19:24 PM »
Bill,
You've notice the same thing I have about the closets. In the 70's I don't recall getting on a plane of any type with out having a coat closet just inside the front door. There also seemed to be another set between upper and lower class. Oops I mean 1st class and coach since we are not supposed to discuss politics. :-) Back in those days it was fairly easy to take my JB on board as it took up less closet space than most suit bags.  From what I have seen and heard talking to folks in the industry (mostly my father) the shift has been to remove non-passenger carrying space in order to add more seats and try to make the flights profitable. As far as I know the trend to remove non-passenger space started somewhere in the 80's mostly for economics. I'm not sure of the factors today but up through the 90's a plane usually had to be 50%-75% full to break even.  
 
Keith

hendixclarke

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #73 on: October 04, 2008, 02:50:03 PM »
Bill, I am sorry as well for not reading as throughly as I should, this is why I said correct me if I am wrong... No harm done, and yes, I am very aware of the rules here, this is why I like it here.
 
This site is a classy site with many intelligent people from all walks of life. I mean this whole heartily.
 
I am always open for corrections, if my ideas fails myself and others especially. I don't mind looking at myself at all.

Bradley Young

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Re: Carry-on on Frontier Airlines
« Reply #74 on: October 06, 2008, 11:37:52 AM »
Last post for me (in this thread).
 
I just want to re-iterate one very important point:
 
There are no objective standards as to whether your guitar will be allowed on any commercial airline in the United States.  I can't speak to international, except to say that international flights are more forgiving in general.
 
The most important thing to understand about flying is that everyone you meet (i.e. TSA, gate attendants, flight attendants) has authority over you and your bags.  They can require you to check them.  As I mentioned earlier, I saw someone kicked off a flight (you are not getting on this flight!, accompanied by tearing the customer's ticket into pieces) for asking an impertinent question.
 
If a flight attendant decides that your bag will be checked/that it does not fit in the overhead, you will either check it, or not fly at all.  All they have to say is: I don't feel it is safe to allow this, and the airline, TSA, and police will back them completely, regardless of the reality, corporate policy, etc.
 
Just to establish my bonafides: I'm a frequent flyer, I have in excess of 500,000 lifetime miles, and frankly, have been there and done that.
 
I may come off as having an attitude, but please understand my thinking: I would not wish to see anyone's precious instrument destroyed, and I consider the risk to be very much in excess of the reward.
 
Just for additional reference, due to my frequent flyer status, I'm usually one of the first people on the plane, and have a tendency to people watch.  I've seen several guitars be forced to be checked (at least gate-checked), and fewer that actually made it on (mostly Martin backpacker type).
 
If the flight is not full, your chances are better, but there isn't any reliable method of determining whether the flight will be full.  If the prior flight gets canceled (which is more and more common due to lax maintenance and wanting to have full flights (i.e. if you have two half full flights within a few hours of each other, you can rest assured that the first flight will be canceled due to mechanical issues or some such)).
 
I've done risk analysis.  Here's a basic formula for analyzing risk:
 
(probability that something will happen) * (effect of that happening) = actual risk
 
Let's fill in some samples:
 
If there is a 10% chance that your $5000 instrument will be destroyed:
 
.1 * 5000 = $500 risk, every time you get on a plane.
 
Now, there are strategies to deal with this, like insurance.  But your insurance will not pay if the item was improperly packed.  The airline will not pay the $2500 (IATA regulated) baggage insurance, because it was improperly packed.  (We're assuming gig bag, right?)
 
The only way to get insurance to work is to make sure the item is properly packed, which means ATA approved flight case.
 
The other thing that is unstated here are values above dollars, which also work for this equation, but not in the mathematical sense.  If for instance, you were traveling with your beloved pet, from whom you could not imagine being parted, the effect could be considered infinite, i.e. there is an infinite amount of actual risk attached, regardless of the chance.  In the business world, the effect would typically be we cease to exist.
 
The other interesting part about risk management is that oftentimes there are no good (or even acceptable) answers.  C'est la vie!
 
I apologize if my earlier responses were emotional, or contained attitude.  I'd just hate to see it all end in tears.
 
Bradley