Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread

[basstard]

John - these are the words of wisdom. While we all agree that Alembic makes basses and guitars that make us the happiest, Fender (and a good number of other manufacturers) still makes very good instruments which can serve as solid workhorses. I especially agree with the modifying = personalizing bit.
 
But then I can also see why some of us get so enraged: it's because of the way Blazej states his opinions. He's a knowleadgeable, experienced studio engineer (and a very good bassist too) but he's really opinionated - and it can be hard to bear for some. Just think of Jeff Berlin. Phenomenal bassist? Of course he is. A man of experience? Indeed. But by Jove, the way he expresses his views (which hold some validity more often than not) is a real pain in the a**! ;-)

[lbpesq]

I really don't think anyone here begrudges Blazej's right to express his opinion, nor has anyone been rude to him regarding any reasonable opinion he has expressed.  The problem, if there is one, stems from his unreasonable, empirically fallacious opinions, and I'm specifically referring to his statements regarding Alembic instruments' lack of articulation and hiding sloppy technique.  If I can analogize to the world of sports, it would be reasonable to express an opinion that Shaquille O'Neil is a bad basketball player, but it would be equally unreasonable and empirically inaccurate to express an opinion that he is short.  Blazej's comments regarding articulation and sloppy technique fall in the latter category.
 
Bill, tgo

[briant]

Fine.
 
blazej: you're not a troll.
 
Feel better?
 
As for the other statements that you made that are so completely incorrect or just personal bias - well that just like, your opinion, man.

[hendixclarke]

Yes, Fender Basses (in the heyday) were more expensive than my Sears catalog Fender Copy.
 
I remember students in my music class (in Jr High) asked before I played a note:
 
Is that a Fender?... Oh!, that's a copy... ah haaa, man your parents can afford to get you a real bass? haaahaaa haaa!
 
Some might think those kids were elitist.  
 
I paid for the bass myself, (I wouldn't burden my parents for the money) doing this, gave me a sense of ownership pride.  
 
What they didn't know, I really wanted a Gibson EB-0 with the pickup selector switches. So again, those kids didn't even hit a nerve.
 
However, after giving my PAN away, my Father bought me Fender P bass (as a birthday gift),  and discovered to my surprise my so-called Fender copy (PAN) sounded better, than the original.  
 
HOW is this possible, (I thought as a child).
My cheap Fender Copy, copy sounded better than the original.
 
Any cheaper Alembic copies out there, sounding better than a real Alembic?  
 
[Crickets chirpings of peace...]  
 
Hal-

[white_cloud]

Hal,
 
Of course there are Fender copies out there better than a Fender - Sadowsky and Lakland make superb Fender copies straight off the shelf that are  better than Fenders - but thats missing the whole point.
 
You cant compare Fenders to Alembics.
 
I will throw it back to you - are there any other high end, hugely expensive handmade custom basses out there that sound better than an Alembic? You may not think so but there are many Fodera players and Ken Smith players and Zon players etc etc etc who would argue that their axes easily compete with Alembic!
 
Its easy to trash Leo Fenders basses but wether it sits well with you or not his name is emblazoned into rock, jazz, blues, country history....and very importantly most folk can aspire to the same Fender that their idol uses (think of the Geddy Lee/Marcus Miller models)
 
Basstard, many thanks for the kind comment but its not really wisdom its simply stating a truth. I agree with you about Jeff Berlin entirely - simply wonderful player but a extremely rebelious and outspoken guy.
 
Blasej and Hal both state their opinions in their own way and its our right to disagree - but at the end of the day that is their truth.
 
Who is right and who is wrong? I think that if you hold onto your own truth nobody elses really matters!
 
John.

[hendixclarke]

I am not going to choose a bass for it's sounds alone...  
 
The bass can sound like (100) of the top basses rolled into one package; if the bass is uncomfortable on my body, (in any way(s)-shape(s) or form(s)) their creators can keep them.
 
I want a bass that fits me, and made for me. That company is Alembic PERIOD. Yeah, I am bias. I paid for my bias in cash.
 
People pay a lot of money for Alembics; and for someone to say Alembics shouldn't had been made, and we still maintain a civil discussion, is a beautiful thing. It shows just how good Alembics are  Yeah, I am spending what took me 20 years to save!!!!  
 
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 28, 2009)

[jedisan]

Oh boy, here we go again... Just wanted to sign up for the thread.

[bsee]

John, those comments can easily be applied to either side of this conflict with slight alteration.  Why would owners/proponents of the most numerous basses in the world feel the need to pick on a small boutique maker?  No one is blameless here, and as much as some posters may have been aggressive in response, what did Blazej expect with the post he made?  Go tell a mother that her baby is ugly.  Think you'll get an amicable response?  Think if you do that 100 times, you won't get something thrown at you at least a few times?  Blazej may not intentionally be a troll, but he did serve that purpose so accurately that I was wondering if he were a real person for a while.  The posts were too aggressive to be believable, but sometimes fact is stranger than fiction.  There's a world of difference between: Your Alembic basses are almost useless in the studio and I have tried recording Alembics on several occasions and I just can't get the sound I'm looking for from them.  Does anyone have experience with the sorts of tricks one needs to apply for a Fender guy to record Alembics well?  Part of respecting others is respecting their feelings and opinions and not insulting them any more than you would directly insult the individual.  
 
The two companies are no more in competition than Mercedes and Scion.  They both make a product that does the same sort of thing, but the approach and result are so different, there's no comparison or competition between the products.  They serve completely different markets.
 
There's no doubt in my mind that a capable musician working with a capable engineer can get wonderful tone out of either instrument on stage or in the studio.  This has been proven over and over.  The techniques have to be a little different and the artists need to know their tools, but that's true with anything.
 
-bob

[hendixclarke]

When you consider all the endorsement dollars Fender spent on acquiring performers to promote only Fenders guitars and basses (regardless to quality) in the end, consumers are the ones that get played.
 
They say, you can trust our instruments because this famous person also uses our instruments...  
 
What they don't tell you, is how much money they are paying the performer(s) to keep their mouths closed on quality.
 
In the end, consumers are the ones that get played.
 
So, seeing a famous name playing a Fedora, Fender, Music Man, Ricky is appealing to some, but as for me, I look to everyday people, and my research to get the truth -- ruth.
 
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 28, 2009)

[jacko]

Well said Bob. It's very easy for us all to rise to someone who appears to being delliberately antagonistic.
IMO, the main reason we see so many Fenders being used in the studio is down to cost and education. I doubt if many of the current crop of 'pop' musicians would know an alembic if it smashed into their face.
 
on a tangent, if the fender bass was the epitome of bass design, why did Leo bring out the Stingray and the G&L. Cold he perchance have been trying to improve his original design?
 
graeme (the enigmatic one)
 
p.s. played 2 huge gigs this week and was complimented on my sound on both occasions. I haven't played my fender live since 1996 ;-)

[hendixclarke]

Leo Fender created Stingray bass for Louis Johnson.  
 
http://www.videosift.com/video/Louis-Johnson-How-To-Thump-a-Bass

[keith_h]

I've been busy and just got caught up on this thread again.  
 
I think  Fenders have their place as has been   stated they have a natural low mid bump that is easy to locate in a mix. Many other basses cover this same frequency range but you have to handle it in the mix down. In other words it takes a little work to fit a full range instrument into a mix as opposed to a limited range instrument.  
 
I think Blazej has brought up something several times without realizing it's importance. Especially with this group of people where it is close to everyday discussion. That something is the effect of the body and neck woods on the overall bass sound. To a lesser extent he has also brought up the effect of the bolt on neck. He appears to prefer ash bodies with maple necks. That with a bolt on neck will give you a good low mid range bump. That same combination  with a set neck will give you a good low mid bump and better sustain. I know this from experience and  comparison since my Fenders are ash bodies with maple neck as is my fretless Orion. This is not the case with my Brown Bass where the tone is much more even across the spectrum. However I can adjust the filters and Q-switches to emphasize this area to pretty good effect.  The point I think he is missing is this is not the sound everybody wants nor should we.  
 
My Brown Bass was specifically made with different neck and body woods for a reason. The selection of woods and neck through was intended to provide a certain tone and response. Likewise I picked certain woods in my forth coming Series 1  
for their tonal characteristics (others were for their looks). Neither of these basses sound like my Orion nor were they intended to sound all the same. This is why I own more than one bass and have custom ordered two of the three. Here is a link to my Orion if anyone is interested.
 
As I said above we talk frequently about the type of woods used and how they affect the sound on the basses. We also to a lesser extent discuss  bolt vs set neck vs neck through design. Perhaps Blazej doesn't realize these same relationships as we do so assumes Alembics are designed as a one size fits all like Fender basses are.  
 
I think Olie summed it up well above when he said it realy comes down to who is paying who to do what.  
   
As far as the quietness of my preamp goes I'm sure it is quieter than any commercial product out there. Plus they have been hardened to make it through nuclear fallout. :-) The op amps were the same ones used in some military avionics/enemy recognition systems I worked on when I used to work for a government contractor. Not to mention tubes are inherently variable on their quality and tolerances and that can have a significant effect on signal to noise ratios. I think the real reason folks get hung up on tubes is the natural compression that takes place once you start to drive the tube into saturation.  
 
Keith

[jakebass]

I have had Wal, Warwick, Blade, Fender and Alembic (I do still have  fender Jazz but with new pups) I'm a little surprised that the main voice against Alembics here has not found an Alembic/Player who can give him exactly what he wants. I can dial all sorts of tones into my MK5 Deluxe. I have used it in studios on a number of occasions, I do understand though, when a producer wants a certain sound for a certain style, sometimes it's sophisticated sometimes it's Fender (not meaning that Fender can't be sophisticated) and sometimes it's upright bass. I try to do them all.
But to my mind here is the most important thing. Of all the instruments I have played over the years I have settled on Alembic because that is the sound that suits my playing so when I hear it back it sounds like me. Other basses have never come close, the point here is that since having an Alembic I have been more encouraged to work on my music (with I think good results) because I'm getting the sound I want. It's exactly the same when amplifying my upright, it's a difficult beast to capture exactly and when the right sound is hard to come by so are the right notes. Somebody said earlier, attempts are being made here to make objective assertions in an otherwise subjective matter. This will make for a circular argument, although I'm enjoying being taken through the various thought processes that result from the matter.
Finally, when employed as a bass player I will do my utmost to give the employer what they want, surely thats a big part of the job, Alembic or no Alembic...

[adriaan]

Blazej's postings also suggest that he has a very specific rig into which he wishes to plug the bass. Even if it is the perfect rig for a Fender, it will simply not be perfect for an instrument with a different character, like an Alembic.
 
I was also wondering about his preference for vintage gear, which to my mind works best in plug-it-in-and-just-stick-a-decent-mike-in-front-of-the-speaker mode, not with a whole chain of attenuators and the plug-to-jack signal detoriation that comes with it.

[hendixclarke]

The best records of a great bass sound for me, is  capturing the full essence, via open mic to speakers.  
 
I would never in my right mind, pug any bass directly into the a direct line recording channel and depend 100% on the mixing controls.
 
It works great for the human voice too, being that we are not born with 1/4 input connections