Author Topic: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread  (Read 2087 times)

juggernaught

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #75 on: June 27, 2009, 01:04:38 PM »
I don't think he's a troll and his comments are certainly legitimate and valuable in their own right.  But they're completely based on what I think is his own sense of what the role of the bass is.  For his purposes, Fender probably fits the bill really well.
 
The basis for this hypothesis is my own personal experiences.  I play Alembic and I never have problems making it come out in the mix (in a 11 piece Salsa band for that matter) the way I play.  But I also recognize that there are bass players that play very different from me (not necessarily better), many of them who play Fenders.  And it sounds great.  And I'm not terribly convinced it would sound exactly the same type of good on an Alembic.
 
What is a bit off is the claim that Fenders are somehow more universal basses than Alembic.  I know I can get Fender-like sounds from my Alembic, though certainly not perfectly, but the other way around is just not possible.  The only way that you can believe in the universality of Fenders is if you have a bias for a certain type of bass player/role.
 
His preferences certainly are not without merit: they're more or less in line with most popular American music from the last 40 years or so.  But from a musical standpoint I cannot see an inherent musical advantage to adhering to that.  Only cultural/economic, such as playing with a well established band seeking that type of sound.  But if you limit yourself, you limit yourself.  It's best to be able to be versatile.  
 
This similar type of thing occurs with jazz/bluegrass/salsa musicians in the old upright vs electric argument.  Some people just want/expect what uprights are good at doing, despite the fact that there are innumerable electric bass players in those genres.  Cuban purists would claim that the only type of bass is upright, but if Eliades Ochoa (from Buena Vista Social Club) can play with an electric bass player then it must be OK.

hendixclarke

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #76 on: June 27, 2009, 01:21:51 PM »
I read this stuff and laugh...
 
Here's another Alembic Bass run... to extend the the Alembic bass vocabulary...  
 
LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN AND LEARN!
 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jrWqli5cq1E
 
Why do I even CARE (sometimes I ask myself)!

blazej_domanski

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #77 on: June 27, 2009, 02:09:28 PM »
Hal:
The alembic basses I have been recorded during the years were five string series II, 4 string epic and stanley signature. My setup included: Demeter and Aguilar Tube Di SWR SM 900 Ampeg SVP Pro Millennia media Origin, NS2EQ, Alan Smart C1, fatso, LA2A, Twincom, Neve 1073 MM HV3D and focusrite red (and many more) and multi miked aguilar, Eden and SWR 4x10 or 2x10 cabinets. Most of the equipment I have been using is listed on my myspace, but I suppose You were to lazy to check Troll myspace. It was dense film score and heavy prog record. It ended that the bassplayers asked me to give them my old fender or used theirs because they were not happy with sound of their instruments after they hear my bass during direct comparison. I did my best to find great tone of alembic basses but fender still beat them. One of the guys sell his bass shortly after the session. After this I recorded rather pop acoustic ballad stuff with one of those players  and alembic sound great in those kind of music.  
 
You have to agree that most of the 70ties and late 60ties funk were recorded with fenders not with alembic basses. Even if it was used for George Clinton it is minority (about 1%) not majority of great sounding bass lines from that period.  If Alembic basses  were so great every serious player would smash his fender and buy alembic... but the true is that majority of bass players still prefer fender or fender inspired instruments. Also notice that some famous players and a lot of others who uses alembic basses in the 80ties slap era start to play fender those years (I have seen Mark King with a jazz bass ).
 
Briant misunderstanding electronics? I have been studying electronics and sound engineering for 7 years and have Wroclaw Technical Institute Diploma. Please do not treat me as a Troll because I have different opinion then yours.  
 
I agree that alembic can be great for latin kind of music. I also plan to record basstard alembic using many setups and compare it with different basses in dense mixes. This would be very interesting. I am here because I want to be open minded and I think this discussion widening my horizons.  
 
Bill I have been played five alembic basses 3 mentioned above for rather short period of time but I think enough time for producing an opinion. I have also played my friend 4 string essence for more than two monts, and another one (do not know the name) during music messe in frankfurt. Mayby it is not enough time for learning how to use them correctly but I have not a problem to use or  record other basses for example switching from Jazz to Pbass or Pedulla Rapture and even Rick almost immediately after picking them. The main problem with alembic basses were the fact that all of them were less articulate than my maple hard ash jazz with badass II bridge and even basstard notice the difference. They also tend to sound muddy during record and live performance compared directly to my jazz

blazej_domanski

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #78 on: June 27, 2009, 02:18:19 PM »
hendrix:
If we talking about santana:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VmVEktTW3a4
 
LISTEN, LISTEN, LISTEN AND LEARN!

jos

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #79 on: June 27, 2009, 02:44:27 PM »
If someone still thinks Alembic basses do not work properly or something I suggest that you go and buy the James Taylor DVD ?At The Beacon Theatre? listen to Jimmy Johnson?s bass sound. He plays together with a drummer with a huge bass drum and everything sounds just great. To be really honest I have never heard a better bass sound for this kind of music and it sounds as good on studio CDs.  
I think that Jimmy has proved and showed us that Alembic basses are just amazing and works really well for studio and live jobs.  
If somebody in this business thinks that the bass sound on this DVD does not work I think he should go and play football or do something else?
Now we can have peace?
J-O-S

chrisalembic

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #80 on: June 27, 2009, 02:54:30 PM »
easy guys,...its good to have diversity.. with anything.. be it music, peoples' opinions or bass sounds,.. personally i am very happy that both Leo Fender and the Wickershams have expressed their ideas of how a bass guitar should sound, look and feel like.. and i am also very happy to listen the music and sound of guys like Stanley or Jaco. Looking at that I think both Alembics and Fenders have their right of existence.

juggernaught

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #81 on: June 27, 2009, 03:16:20 PM »
I can't shake the feeling that you're objectifying something that is fraught with subjective factors.  You can't talk about articulation (or indeed muddiness, coming out in the mix, etc) without talking about the bass's role in the context of the other instruments in the mix.  I feel that by bass gets better articulation for how I play my bass with the people I play with.  So automatically I think that your arguments are not as comprehensive as you would lead us to believe.
 
Have you thought about the idea that maybe your lack of success with Alembics may have to do with your preference with how the bass, and just as importantly the other instruments, are brought into the mix?  I'm not saying that you're not open to different mixing but you may be a victim of your own preferences in some systematic way which you may not be aware of.  You may have a quanitifiable set of expectations, which inherently involve a complex relationship between all the instruments, such that Alembics don't fit so well.  In this sense, you, as a musical experimenter, are effecting the results of the experiment.
 
The only reason I say this is I've heard tons of recordings and live stuff where the Alembic came out awesome (off the top of my mind Disco Volante and California from Mr Bungle come to mind).  I've had a lot of success playing with others Alembics achieving a sound that we all love.  And if it still sounds weak to you, maybe that's just your preference.  Maybe you like to hear the bass and the other instruments do other things than I do.
 
I think the argument that if Alembics were so great, then everyone would be playing them assumes that people play instruments for purely musical reasons.  You must admit you know that isn't true.  My experience is that most people, whether they know jack about basses or not think Fender is the shit.  And I always point them to Sadowsky (also available in passive, ash, etc), which to my ear is just as good at achieving the Fender sound, and you wont have to worry about that neck buckle at the 18th fret  in 5 years due to 40 year old construction techniques (if I believe what my guitar tech tells me).
 
As far as Fenders, you can't just ignore the cultural factors that have led the Fender sound, and indeed the Fender style of playing to be widely accepted.  I'm not sure this remotely implies an inherent goodness of Fenders in a mix of any particular type of music, unless you include economic and cultural factors that might increase success (such as playing a certain way with a guitar play who's used to a certain type of bass playing.  That might, however, affect people's understanding of what instruments *should* do in relationship to each other.
 
And once again, I've heard some great jazz bass.  But if I was in that person's position I would approach the music in a different way, just based on what I like to hear.

hendixclarke

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #82 on: June 27, 2009, 03:22:29 PM »
Fender Basses are simply inferior in construction, wood, paint, electronics, hardware (EVERYTHING).  
 
Unless they are added to extra effects, or pickups were gutted out, those basses are weak, flaccid, and frankly terrible. Everybody I know, with them had changed the original electronics and pickups.
 
I had never heard anyone in my circles, do this with an Alembic.  
 
Buying a Fender Bass, is the first step toward changing the stock parts. Its almost the natural thing to do...It's even encouraged by most Fender Bassist... Jaco customized his Fender Bass too.  
 
I guess, Fender just can't get it right on the first run...

hendixclarke

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #83 on: June 27, 2009, 03:57:02 PM »
I am not pitting Alembic vs Fender, for I already chosen the winner (2) decades ago. The battle is over (far as I am concern...)  
 
However, even feeling the way I do; about my admiration for Alembic basses and the people that make them, I would NERVER go to a Fender club site, and say: Fenders are inferior and here are my reasoning...  
 
In my heart, I think of people at Fender (over there) are happy, and they appear to be happy with their Fenders, LEAVE THEM ALONE!  
 
If I am competing for a bass part, and the other guy uses the Fender, that's different (for I will create sounds yet heard...) GAME ON!
 
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 27, 2009)

David Houck

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #84 on: June 27, 2009, 10:26:35 PM »
Hi Blazej, welcome to the board!
 
Here are a few thoughts about this thread.
 
In reading through the discussion I've noticed a few posts that appear to fall outside the posting guidelines.  I've just reread the posting guidelines and they clearly say to treat all members with respect and kindness.  Blazej is a new member here, and while we may disagree with his opinions, that does not mean we should not treat him with respect and kindness.  In my view, treating someone derisively is outside of the spirit of this board.  Again, it is certainly understandable that we may disagree on various issues, but we can disagree civilly.  Derisiveness reflects poorly on our community and does not contribute anything to the discussion.
 
Blazej; my apologies.  While I am sure you expected to find that many of us would disagree with your assessment of Alembic instruments, and almost all of our members here have given their opinions quite civilly, I hope that you have not formed a poor initial impression of our community based on one or two posts.  Sometimes people react and post without taking the time to think about what they are saying and how they are saying it.  And it's certainly understandable; it's a habitual way of dealing with the world around us that we pick up early on in life.  But our community here has found that this board is a much more enjoyable place when we treat each other respectfully, and for the most part, our discussions here are quite civil.  We really are a great group of people, sharing a love for music and our instruments.  And usually, it's a great place to hang out, no matter what the topic.
 
If any one of our members is having trouble remembering the posting guidelines, please read them again.
 
Thanks everyone, and enjoy your day.

hendixclarke

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #85 on: June 28, 2009, 12:30:16 AM »
You have to agree that most of the 70ties and late 60ties funk were recorded with fenders not with alembic basses.
 
TOTALLY FALSE!
 
Sly and the Family Stone in the 60's, their bass player Larry Gram invented slap and pop, and his main instrument was NOT a Fender bass. It was a Vox Apollo.  
 
Jermaine Jackson (remember him from the Jackson 5) used Gibson EB-0 on every Motown Renaissance Classic Jackson 5 record and in video. After Jermaine went solo, its debut Album was this: This album picture was taken somewhere 1976.  
 
Wow, just imagine the kind of recording equipment was used back in those days, compared to the advances now, and you say your having recording issues in modern times with Alembics?
 
LOL  
 
 

basstard

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #86 on: June 28, 2009, 03:45:33 AM »
Oh my, I've created a monster...
 
1. Jan-Olof and Jimmy J - thank you so much for chiming in! An insight from internationally acclaimed musicians with decades of studio and stage experience is invaluable!
 
2. B?a?ej - siemasz :-)
 
3. Blazej is NOT a troll. He's a very good recording engineer, highly respected here in Poland (please, no Polish jokes ;-)). However, just like most of you, I disagree with about 90% of his opinions. BUT! I agree that Alembic basses aren't for everything (nor are they for everyone). And yes, his Jazz Bass is a total monster in terms of tone and response to articulation. And yes... it was modified (Badass II bridge, I'm suspecting new pickups, probably new pots) by Blazej himself ;-)
 
I think that a Fender bass is still a standard worldwide - this basses, especially the Jazz Bass, have a kind of tone that simply fits every kind of music - but, as I've already said, there is much much more to the world of beautiful bass sounds than just the Fenders and Fender-inspired instruments (btw, I've had an opportunity to check out an F-Bass VF5 - this may well be the ultimate modern Jazz Bass derivate!). Everything has its place in the world - thank you Chris (Chrisalembic) for pointing that out :-)
 
Blazej - one more thing: you've asked about the punchiest Alembic model. While I've never played one, I suspect it might be the Excel, due to its set-in design and ash body. I'd love to check one out. And the Orion EMW (http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_emw.html) would be quite interesting tp try for you, I suspect ;-)

white_cloud

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #87 on: June 28, 2009, 04:20:23 AM »
Yet more pathetic and childish swipes at Fender.  
 
Guys, you paid your money and made your choice ...so why cant you enjoy the finest basses in the world without feeling so insecure as to feel the need to trash other makers? For your information Leo Fender changed modern music, from James Jamerson to Duck Dunn to Jaco Pastorius to Geddy Lee to Eric Clapton to Jimi Hendrix (you reading this Hal?) to Stevie Ray to Buddy Holly to Pete Townsend - the list could easily go on and on and on all day long!
 
Never underestimate the business sense of factory mass producing a range of affordable instruments with a great, simple design that works great and sounds good. Never understimate the psychological impact on aspiring players seeing their peers making musical history on said instruments!
 
Alembic ARE the pinnacle of musical electronics, definitely the Rolls Royce of basses in my honest opinion - but most cant afford them. To compare a mostly handmade bass against a mass produced factory one is a ridiculous arguement and it holds no water. Of course it wont be technically as good, but magic can still be made on a simple instrument!
 
Sure Leo made em cheap and stacked em high to undercut the much more expensive Gibson brand but thank god he did. And who cares if Fender players upgrade their instruments, it makes the instrument more personal to the owner then good luck to them if it gives them pleasure!
 
This thread displays some very bad examples of musical snobbery imho.
 
Just remember folks, one mans meat is another mans poison.  
 
Tolerance is a human virtue and would not go amiss here!
 
John.

georgie_boy

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #88 on: June 28, 2009, 04:38:07 AM »
Well said John!!

hendixclarke

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #89 on: June 28, 2009, 08:19:16 AM »
You know what Hal,  
 
... you need to upgrade/downgrade your furniture, before I can sitting down and enjoy my tea with you...
 
Then sit on the oldest thing in my house...
 
And what is that?
 
The floor.