Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread

[keith_h]

Blazej,
I have to disagree with your statement about active basses hiding poor technique. I have found just the opposite. With active basses and Alembic in particular you have have to excellent technique as the expanded frequency response of the active electronics shows up all of your playing problems. With passive basses the frequency response is much less so it can hide poor technique. I have recorded off and on since the 70's and went active with my Jazz Basses in the late 70's. Not only did the active tone controls open up my sound but it forced me to improve my technique due to the extended range. I can also say during this time I have never had an engineer request that I use a passive bass. Likewise since I have moved to Alembic have I have never been requested to use something different. As a matter of fact I have usually been told that the engineer likes the extended range as all of the tones are there for them to mix with later on. My typical recording setup is a direct box from the bass and a post DI from my Eden Navigator. Keep in mind also that are many recordings out there that used Alembic basses and the bass is not lost in the mix. I'm thinking the Dixie Dregs, Stanley Clarke, The Doobie Bros., etc. By the way my last band was a three guitar front plus keyboards Southern rock band and I have never had issues cutting through the mix with any of my basses. My Alembics in particular.
 
Many of those Fender players you mention are using active versions of the bass. I think you summed it up when you said there is a natural bump in the mid-bass with Fender's and that this makes it easier to find it's place in the mix. I believe this has been stated by others in this thread as the main reason people request you use a Fender (it can't be the dreaded dead spot at the 4th string, 5th fret :-) ).
 
Could part of the problem you perceive be an excessive amount of mid range scooping by a slapper. I have run into this when the person is not familiar how their instrument reacts in a group. The end result is a lot of muddy boom and a very weak high end that gets lost. I jut chalk this problem up to inexperience and try to help the person understand how to better use their equipment.      
 
I'd like to close with the fact I do like my Jazz Bass quite a bit. When I bought my long scale Alembics it was very important to me that the necks be very close to the JB neck dimensions and feel. Personally I never have like the feel nor sound of the Precision. Does this invalidate other people liking it? No, it is just a matter of personal taste.  
 
Keith

[blazej_domanski]

IBPSQ
Please listen to the Led Zeppellin concert and records... You can clearly hear every note played on Jazz Bass period even if its tone is rather dark played fingerstyle and when JPJ switched to alembic bass guitar disappear... also compare Marcus and Stanley tone for clarity and presence. IMO Alembics have the clarity and presence when played alone or in small ensemble but it tend to disappear in dense mixes fenders sound thin like a shit when You listen to them solo but begin shine when You play with a band.  
Blazej

[hendixclarke]

Blazej_domanski, If only Tina Turner could say it best... I'd say: Welcome to the Thunder Dome!  
 
let me just say I appreciate your comments for it was extremely laughable.    
 
I almost feel out of my chair laughing when you said:
 
But those beautifully constructed Alembic Basses have only one problem - The Idea is bad.
 
That was hilarious to read!!!!!
 
HA haaa haa haa haa haaha aha h ha aah ah  ehh Man, you kill me!!!!! HAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAA!!!!!
 
 
Get him off Stage...!  
 
Somebody call the Apollo Theater's  Sand-man to get this guy off the stage... please, because I can't stop laughing LOL!!!!!
 
Haaa haaa eh!
 
That's bad, I don't like to laugh at people... I like to laugh with people...
 
Please for give me.

[dannobasso]

I have used Alembics on every gig and recording since 1983. I was never directed to another instrument by an engineer. I have had some who used their usual method and had to adjust because the result was not what they were used to but I still used my basses. I've gone direct, amps, combos of tube di's, amps and direct into tape, protools, protools mixed through vintage tube boards and whatever was the fashion of the day or preference of the engineer.  
Maybe I'll come up against a situation were I'm not allowed to use my instrument, but most have been very happy with the sound without doing anything to it beyond compression.  
In the end it doesn't really matter what we think if you are getting paid to put your vision and stamp on a product. May you continue in your profession and reap the rewards of your craft.

[blazej_domanski]

Keith H,  
Passive pickups connected to the high quality tube high impedance preamplifier give You much more headroom and dynamic response and punch then buffer amplifier or active electronic, also passive instruments arent only alder palisander combination with flats rubber mute and tone control down You can go pretty agressive with maple and hard ash combination ala Marcus and Anthony Jackson.

[lbpesq]

Blazej:
 
As I stated above, I believe I know what I hear.  Telling me I'm not hearing what I'm hearing isn't going to convince me, or anyone.  And your description of Alembic electronics as buffer amplifier made from cheap op amplifiers or transistors only serves to prove that you have never actually cracked open an Alembic and eyeballed the electronics.  Therefore, your opinion is at least partially based on faulty assumptions rather than fact.  Enjoy your 70's Fenders - the almost universally recognized worst of all time.
 
Bill, tgo

[jos]

HI Guys! Yes quite interesting to read. I know many different producers like most of us an all of them have different taste. I know producers that do not like to use bass guitars at all. I know producers that loves Fenders then there are guys that likes everything that sounds good. Everyone have their own way to do things. Staring from what recording equipment to use there are so many different choices. Its great with all this discussion about Alembics if they are OK for studio or not. But if I did understand the thing with bolt-on basses right, then upright basses are useless? too much low frequencies and classical music is probably not good at all not to mention acoustic jazz. Upright basses are not bolt-on and they do have a wide tone like neck-through bass guitars.  
Metallicas black album is recorded with an active neck-through Spector Bass, the album sound great. Marcus Miller used to use passive Fenders but have been using an active bass for 20 years and sounds now much better now. He also plays a neck through active Fodera fretless and sounds good.
Anthony Jackson plays neck through Fodera and sounds great.
Richard Bona uses neck-through active Fodera and sounds great. Flea did change to passive Fender basses for a few months but then quickly changed back to active basses because he needed more tone and punch.
It has been great to read all this?..
 
J-O-S

[hendixclarke]

Ok, I had now collected myself...
 
I can't speak for Rock as a whole, but Alembic basses were choice basses and guitars for Parliament/Funkadelics during George Clinton's 70's hey-days. Rodney Skeet Curtis (Parliament-Funkadelic) was about the bass and the groove.
Knee Deep, Atomic Dog, One Nation Under A Groove, The Mothership Connection (If you hear any noise, it's just me and the boys..) Duke and Stanley also remixed this jam... Alembics and all...
 
The group, Rose Royce Car Wash Alembic.
 
Marven Isley - The Isley Brothers: Who is that Lady..., Alembic bass blasting!  
 
Jamaine Jackson (My God Bless him and his family...) Song Let's get serious Alembic
blasting!
 
Legendary funk bassist Louis Johnson, Strawberry Letter 23, Brotherman, Q  
 
...and guess who produced and engineered the album... Quincy Jones. It's pretty clear, Alembic was not turned down from his authority....
 
 
 

 
Also, above all the facts I presented, I own an Alembic Series I and currently have another one being made so, I speak from my own experiences and recordings that your claims are faceless.
 
One more thing... The bass is quintessential to Soul, Jazz, Gospel, and R&B. This why you find the best techniques for bass, comes from those genre of music. Alembics will always have a home with me as they did with Quincy Jones production of the the Brother's Johnson, and Stanley Clarke too who would probably be an even stronger authority on basses in general.  
 
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 26, 2009)
 
(Message edited by hendixclarke on June 26, 2009)

[olieoliver]

WOW, I see a HUGE can of worms opened here. One might as well walk into a biker bar with a Honda T-shirt and yell HARLEY SUX!
 
Seriously though, I respect your opinion of what you prefer Blazej, but I have to agree with Keith here. I have owned and still do own several different Fenders, Alembics, Warwicks Music Man and other basses and in my 35+ years of playing and recording I find my Alembics to be far more responsive to my articulation and dynamics. I do agree with you that they do have a wider range of sound than your average passive bass but they do have filters to adjust their range.  
My only complaint, if you want to call it that, about my Alembics is I can't play sloppy. As for Alembics hiding poor technique, I find the total opposite to be true. I can get away with much more sloppy playing on my Fenders and MM basses (all mid 70's models) than I can on my Alembics.
 
And I have NO problem what so ever getting a  fat bottom end with clear destinct notes.
 
I am in no way trying to be arguementive here either, as I said I respect your opinion and you are entitled to it but let me add that I would in no way be so rudes as to come into your studio and rag on your gear. Let's not forget whose house we're in.
 
Peace, Olie Oliver

[blazej_domanski]

Jos
Bass guitar is barely audible on black album. Newsted also played with a pick to cut thru and he is still less audible then Burton or Robert T. mainly fingerstyle players...  
also as Jim Roberts say in the book how fender bass changed the world the fender bass changed music because it was more audible than upright.
Also consider that in acoustic jazz and classical You do not have typical huge bass drum (rock or pop) to fight (or mixed with)  
 
IBPSQ  
Please compare alembic electronics To Millennia Media Avalon UA SPL Neve or other Hi tech Studio mastering quality gear. I read a lot of Rick Turner articles and I know what is inside...  70' fenders are recognized worst of all time for build quality not for tone... those are different aspects.

[germansal]

hi basstard about your comment ,two thinGs come to my mind:
your engineer have no idea of a real bass sound
and the second one is:YOU MUST LEARN HOW TO HANDLE YOR ALEMBIC BASS SOUND
REGARDS FROM SPAIN

[lbpesq]

Blazej:
 
First of all, comparing Alembic electronics to a Neve board doesn't result in the Alembic system being made of cheap parts.  Where did you read Rick Turner claiming Alembic uses cheap parts?  Are you aware that Rick Turner has not been affiliated with Alembic for many years?  
 
Second, your comparison missed the mark.  Comparing onboard electronics to a high end studio gear?  Well, if I'm playing a gig, the high end studio gear sitting in a studio somewhere is completely useless to me.  You are comparing apples and oranges.  I admit that an F-16 fighter jet is much faster than my Mazda Miata, but if I want to travel from Oakland to San Francisco, the Miata is infinitely more useful.  And I'll match both build, playability, and tone of my '61 Strat against any 70's 3 bolt out there.  
 
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I can even understand (though I don't agree with it) your preference for Fenders.  But when you make claims like Alembics aren't punchy or articulate, or that Alembics hide sloppy playing, I can only deduce that you have no experience with the instruments.  One might reasonably argue that Porches are ugly overpriced cars, (not me), but when you start claiming they are slow and don't handle well, you lose all credibility.
 
Bill, tgo (LBPESQ)

[keith_h]

I'll beg to differ on the quality of components. I am an Electrical Engineer by training. In the 70's I took my Fenders and made them all active. I designed and built the preamps. For these I used all mil-standard components. These are of much higher quality and lower noise than you will ever find in non-military equipment. The frequency response and clean signal far and away beats any of the passive abilities of the original instrument. If you wish to visit I can clearly show you on a scope.  
 
You keep on bringing up Marcus Miller. He plays active basses and has for a number of years. Stu Hamm plays Fenders but guess what? They are active basses.  
 
You have also said the bass hides in the mix. I have pointed out several bands where the bass is  up front that play Alembics. I can add more if you like. The point is it is not the instruments fault if something gets hidden in the mix. It is either the musician or the engineer/producer that is at fault. As I said before I put a lot of it on the musician not knowing how his instrument works. I can also say that the trend for guitars to drop tuning has moved them into the traditional range for bass. This causes a conflict and muddy sound.
 
As a last thought I expect you remember all of those great Fender bass lines from the 60's and early 70's. Many of those were doubled by an organ as the Fender Bass was not full and loud enough. By doubling on the organ it brought the bass forward into the mix.
 
I'm glad you like your Fenders. I like the ones I have but they are not the be all, end all of bass guitars. There are many other brands that are as good or better. My take is if you like to play Fenders do so but respect the fact that not everybody wants to. After all why would we have all of the improved Fenders such as Lakland, G&L and Fedora if the Jazz Bass was the ultimate?
 
Regards, Keith

[blazej_domanski]

Bill
Rick do not sait that it is cheap he only said what is inside and why.
I am only saying that onboard electronic is less sophisticated and much cheaper and therefore worse sounding then high quality studio gear. Therefore to retain whole quality of instrument You should be able to hard bypass it in the studio. I have compared 60ties fenders to 70ties models (both basses and guitars and did not find difference in quality of tone I prefere 70ties models because of hard ash and maple combinations. Punch and articulation from alembics I have had in the studio disappear in the dense mix as opposite to fenders. Mayby it was problem with the examples I have (it is hard to find many alembic basses in europe ( Ive played 5 and recorded 3. But the problem persist also with almost every alembic inspired bass (sandwitch neck thru with active electronics - most of them very expensive) except pedulla pentabuzz and rickenbacker (passive but neck thru)  which record well. So please write me which model of alembic is most articulate and punchy. Opinion about hiding sloppy playing is not only mine those alembic players have a lot of problems with huge dynamic range of my jazz and all articulation details and I and other fender players have no articulation problem with alembic bases. All of those alembic players were definitely much better and technically advanced musicians then me but as they said playing fenders reveal for them their articulation problems.

[blazej_domanski]

Keith - but Marcus bass is still bolt on Fender with high impedance passive pickups with bartolini TCT (Bypassable of course) buffer - He have not use sadowsky from many years. If You compare new instruments I can agree that lakland G@L or Mike Lull are far better than fenders but I do not find yet any new instrument with tone quality close to now more than 30 years old fenders. Wood was better those years and after 30 years of being played instrument do sound different. Keith if You made those onboard pre what was the power if it was 9 or even 18 volts it still would be not able to sound like studio gear especially with tube input stage.
 
There are many great soundings instruments but I think that alembic basses are specific  tools not universal one.
Best Regards Blazej