The values of a vintage make...

[gtrguy]

(Just had to push my posts to over 200 to get to advanced status!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

[altgrendel]

Vintage?
 
It's not what you think it's worth, it's how much someone else is willing to pay.
 
My 78 fretless Guild B-301 is priceless to me. I don't think it's go for much more that $800.00 on eBay, though you never know.

[s_wood]

Hmmm...not to be a contrarian, but in my subjective opinion the Alembics that are being built today are more desirable than the Alembics built in the 70's or 80's.  
 
Let me hasten to add that I completely agree with Keavin's wonderful post above as it pertains to the changes in wood that occur over time as the drying process continues. There's no doubt that there will be a subtle affect in tone as a result. Whether or not the change in tone will result is a sound that is better or worse is, of course, entirely subjective.  Even if we want to assume for the sake of this discussion that old and drier wood sounds better, that has to be balanced against a couple of factors.  First, and although this is a purely subjective opinion of mine, I really do believe that the quality of the instruments produced by Alembic today is the highest it has ever been.  Of course, alembic quality has always been amazing and second to none, but it's even better now.  I particularly notice the difference in the fret work, which is nothing short of spectacular these days.  Again, it was always top quality - all I am saying is that I think it's better now.
 
A second factor that makes older Alembics sound different than newer ones relates to the finishes used.  In the 70's Alembic used a lot of oil finishes, and in the 80's the clearcoat that they used was much thicker than what is used today.  The finish differences will absolutely affect the instrument's tone, but whether or not the modern finishes sound better or worse is, again, purely subjective. My ears very much prefer the sound of the more modern finishes used by Alembic.  They are much thinner than the old oil or poly finishes, and to my ears they produce a brighter and more open sound.  
 
Like I said, those are subjective observations.  What's fact is that the post-2000 Series electronics are quieter than the original design. I own basses built before and after the design change, and the difference is pretty noticeable.
 
Bottom line: I would rather own a newer Alembic than an older one.  But hey, that's just me...
 
(Message edited by s_wood on May 20, 2009)

[olieoliver]

I think the value or desirability of older Alembics or the new ones is very subjective. It all boils down to the individual.  
As for better or worse, I have a 1989 Series II and a 2008 Series II. The 89 has the original electronics, no upgrade, and while they do sound different they are equals in my opinion.  
 
I for one would love to have a 70's Series bass, and hopefuly this will come to pass one day.  
 
OO

[hendixclarke]

I want a 80's and 90's shorty...

[white_cloud]

So whats the opinion in general?? Are old Alembics better than new builds?
 
Im going to nail my colours to the mast here - I would rather buy an old used Series than have one built for me!  
 
It may just be my state of mind on such things but to me I prefer to buy used instruments. Nothing beats a good played in vintage bass that has been played and loved.  
 
John.

[olieoliver]

So whats the opinion in general?? Are old Alembics better than new builds?  
 
To me neither better or worse, different.  
 
OO

[jazzyvee]

I prefer the new Series basses but the only reason I would buy an older Series instrument in preference to a new one is cost. However not many newish series stuff comes up for sale that often.
 
Jazzyvee

[jacko]

So whats the opinion in general?? Are old Alembics better than new builds?
Unless you're lucky enough to have a new build series and an old series to compare it with, any comment is going to be pretty subjective. I love my '79 precision but that's more about the experiences I've had with her than the sound (which is part rickenbacker anyway)  I play my 2005 and 2007 Alembics more than anything else.  
 
Graeme

[kenbass4]

Okay, I'll bite.
 
I own a 2006 Series II Gwathnar and a 1976 Series I http://alembic.com/club/messages/411/31037.html?1201140181
 
I find that for the most part, they sound similar, but since one is fretted and strung with roundwounds, and the other fretless with flats, their differences have less to do with age than setup. I find the Series I will pick up some noise, but it's barely noticeable, and doesn't effect my stage sound at all. I love them both equally for their purposes.
 
Ken

[hendixclarke]

Well, I personally think it can go either way. But I am leaning more to innovation and improvements.  
 
Besides, there are only a limited number of vintage Alembics to go around anyway (I am generally talking about 70's). I feel lucky to hold one, that's for sure, but there's more innovation to come, just watch and see...

[elwoodblue]

I'm eagerly awaiting John Judge's designs.
What impresses me about Alembic is the consistency of quality and service throughout the decades.  
 
  Lotsa love and hard work put into each instrument no matter the era.  
 
 I appreciate everyones input and points of view in this thread.
 
(Message edited by elwoodblue on May 20, 2009)

[JimmyJ]

Good thread my friends!  Allow me to jump in with a couple thoughts even though I consider this subject to be on the fringe of mythology and magic and at least a very very personal perception thing...  In the end, the instrument with the most value is the one that YOU enjoy most - for whatever reason.
 
Alembic has never gone through a CBS period of cost cutting, poor construction and awful instruments so there is no pre-CBS time period we can name.  Construction and concept have always been cutting edge and remains so.
 
Does older wood which has been subjected to the right vibrations have some special atomic alignment mojo that makes vintage instruments better?  Well, I guess it's possible.  Certainly the Strads and similar acoustic instruments seem to have improved with age like fine wine - of course there is no way to prove this as recording techniques have changed and anybody who may have heard these fiddles when they were brand new is long gone...  But I own 3 supposedly identical Series II fretted 5-string basses made of the same wood and dimensions within 2 years of each other - and they all sound different.  To me (again, subjective) there is a distinct #1, #2 and #3.  So the random variance of the wood used in construction seems to have had the biggest impact on the sound of these instruments.  And since no two Alembics can ever be identical, every comparison of old to new, or even new to new, is subjective.
 
So,
1.  I don't think so, but if so it's a very subtle thing.  Chances are my fingers have changed over the years but I can't say if they sound better or worse.  Your mileage may vary.
    1a.  The electronics package has gotten QUIETER with Ron's recent upgrade so unless you enjoy the additional hum of vintage my choice here would be the new.
 
2.  I don't know if the Strads are still getting better or sounding worse so mid-point would be a tough call.
 
3.  Our well constructed solid state electronics package can last a very long time.  In 34 years playing these basses the electronics have been rock solid.  Unlike tubes there is no maintenance required.  Electrolytic capacitors (like the ones in the DS5 power supply) will sometimes give up the ghost with age, especially if they have not been energized in many years.  But again, I haven't run into that problem with any my instruments or power supplies.  We could take this in another mythical direction and ask if the flat pack chips in the original preamp cards sounded better than the current chips... but let's not go there.  Haha!  Does it have the vintage FETs?  Oh Lord!
 
4.  No.  Is there even such a thing as a Vintage Alembic market?  I am a player and can't really understand the concept of a collector so maybe I shouldn't comment here.  If somebody was just buying the instrument to display it in a glass case I would glue some knobs on the front and pull the electronics package and wiring harness to keep as spare parts.  
 
4.5  The only things that might require maintenance are the parts that get physically worked.  Tuners wear out, frets, possible nut and bridge saddles, sometimes 1/4 inch jacks...  I don't think installing a new 1/4 jack would detrimentally effect the instrument's vintage value.
 
Pardon the lengthy ramble!
Cheers to all,
Jimmy J

[crobbins]

I like em all..

[white_cloud]

Perception is key - each individual will have their own ideal based on what and how they percieve something!
 
A lot of members here go into the minutest of detail about technical specification but I think that can often ammount to missing the point! I remember eading a fascinating interview with Jaco many years ago where the interviewer was flabbergasted that Jacos main beat up 62 Jazz had the original pots, pickups and hardware - he asked but why too which Jaco replied because it sounds good! - simplistic but that statement captures my whole technical requirement from a bass...it just has to sound good.
 
For example TerryC states earlier in this discussion about how he perceives Fenders to be two lumps of wood screwed together with a single pickup - yet they have been used effectively by some of the greatest electric bassists of all time to make some of the most important music ever recorded! The same arguement could be used to dictate that Alembics are just a bunch of thin laminates and veneers glued and clamped together with a birds nest of much too complicated circuitry and wiring - its a self defeating arguement, its down to your own perception!  
 
Also, the sublime (and I truly mean sublime) Jimmy Johnson talks about hum on older Alembics but to me that wouldnt matter too much at all if I could be lucky enough own one!
 
John.