Author Topic: Another 'How do I get Phil Lesh's tone?' thread (Read 1384 times)

hieronymous · « **Reply #30 on:** September 17, 2010, 07:12:55 AM »

If he doesn't, he can always listen to a tape of the show!

llobsterbass · « **Reply #31 on:** October 22, 2010, 03:12:08 PM »

Owsley has said many times that his quest that culminated in the Wall of Sound was sparked ca. 1966 in the LA pink house when he smoked some DMT and SAW the music coming out of the speakers during Dead band practice.

slicknickhaas · « **Reply #32 on:** January 15, 2011, 12:25:23 AM »

My recipe for modern/vintage Phil tone,

Take one Modulus Quantom and dress it with Shadowsky flat wounds,

Simmer in one Alembic FB-2, plumbed by dropping bass into CH. A with a line also run into Ch.B
(stereo)

then take one Vintage Fender Bassman 100, and run CH.A to the bass input and CH. B to the normal input,

set The volume on CH B at zero and dial CH A to taste, then turn A down and set up CH B,

set the volumes the same and enjoy!

I've run this with a Fender bassman 4/12 cabnet,
or a eden 4/10 with or with out a 1/15, but for the best sound, use one of each!

cosmic · « **Reply #33 on:** January 18, 2011, 07:13:50 PM »

Modulus, half rounds, graphite pick....etc

The next key to his modern sound is his amps and how he is EQing them.

He's running an Eden WT800 head and a pair of Eden D410XLT stacks.

The unique thing is in the EQ. He is running the Eden EQ rather odd. See the picture.

The gray knob is the Enhance knob. According to Eden it The Enhance circuitry adds very low bass, upper mids and highs while scooping out a bit of low middle. The more Enhance you dial in, the greater the boost (and cut). Most players don't have it past 9 o'clock on the dial. Phil has it pegged all the way. That is a MAJOR cut in the mids and a boost in the lows, upper mids and highs.

The red knob to the right is a shelving low tone at 30HZ that can provide a 15dB cut or boost (all of the rest of the knobs can cut/boost 15dB) The next three red knobs are the parametric boost/cut for low, mid and high. The top knobs set the frequency, the bottom knobs cut/boost that specified frequency (counter clockwise = cut; clockwise=boost) He is boosting a low around 100HZ, a mid around 500HZ and slight cut at 6.5K. Note that on these Edens, one click of the knob is a MAJOR cut/boost in decibels. So he is doing some aggressive boosts on the low and mid parametric. Finally, the last red knob pictured to the far right is a shelving high control at 11KHz that is taking a nice cut.

When he ran the Meyer 218 and 112 cabinets he also used a a Meyer Sound CP-10 parametric EQ. Phil would run the Eden Enhance full, and bring the mids back in the with CP-10. I am not sure if he is still using the CP-10 now that he has the Eden cabs and is just using the Eden head to boost back in the mids, or is doing a little of both.

Either way, his basic set up is Enhance FULL and then pushing the mids back in down the line.

Here is an Eden discussion that has another pic of his Eden head -- with very different EQ settings (besides the Enhance) - which makes me think he is now relying more on the head to push the mids back out vs. the CP-10.

http://www.eden-electronics.com/forum/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=17360

However you slice it, Phil is using the Eden head in a way that is not recommended by the factory in their suggestions on how to get a good sound. According to the Eden tech Mike Gordon is using it in a similar fashion. You gotta love Phil.

Anyways....hope this view of his EQ helps some of you toneheads figure out what Phil is up to.

cosmic · « **Reply #34 on:** January 18, 2011, 07:25:02 PM »

By comparison, here is Mike Gordon's Eden. You can see he has marked off where he wants the knobs to be be baselined.

Below the head is a Meyer CP-10. In another rack (not pcitured) he has the Avalon U5 to shove the mids back in.

Same deal, Enhance full - pushing mids back in with either the Meyer CP-10 or the Avalon (or both).

Odd set-up....but I have to say, Phil and Mike get an incredibly CLEAN and warm tone that is heard in the mix.

bigredbass · « **Reply #35 on:** January 19, 2011, 02:53:07 AM »

It's the typical setup for people playing thin-sounding-to-them basses: Cut the bejeezus out of the mids (I have an Eden Metro, and that 'enhance' knob is a 'master smiley face' control) to kill the clickety-clack, then fatten it back up on the back side ( ! ).

I'd be drinking out of a hospital straw too. Owning an Eden (right up there with an IRS audit or root canals with aspirin for anesthesia) has made me want nothing more than an F2B.

I can NOT understand how we've gotten to the point where basses have 3-band EQ running into amps with a front end that has more EQ than most recording boards when you don't need it and are courting a 100% chance you'll have crappy tone by the time it's all said and done.

Gee, maybe that's the secret to the PhilTone !

J o e y

benson_murrensun · « **Reply #36 on:** January 19, 2011, 09:31:19 AM »

I love my Eden WT-400+ !!!!! The starter sound (EQ flat) is really good, and, as previously mentioned, the EQ controls are REALLY powerful. I am happy with it every time it's used. The D.I. seems to work well, too. The amp is a GREAT match for an Acme Low B-2: great sounding and portable, too. (And every time I use it... I STILL don't sound like Lesh.)

llobsterbass · « **Reply #37 on:** January 19, 2011, 02:17:24 PM »

Thanks, great thread, especially the EQ pix. Been wanting that data for ages. I never would have guessed those settings and I've been listening very closely to both of em for 25 years.

I'm stunned that both Phil & Mike pin the ENHANCE knob at 100%. I use just a taste, at most. usually none. beyond a little, I start to hear it and it's notably boomy and weird.

Mike's high-mid cut makes sense if you're playing a Modulus, but he cuts a much lower frequency than I do. There's a range in the high mids that hits me right in the sinus; a few dB rolloff does the trick.

I run my Eden nearly flat all the time. Ironic for an amp with so many EQ options, but it's great to have them when needed for different basses.

Remember, also, that Phil at least varies his EQ significantly from gig to gig to dial in the room. Dunno about Mike but my guess is not as much.

edwin · « **Reply #38 on:** January 19, 2011, 02:18:14 PM »

Ouch, Joey! I used to feel that way about Eden too, but a backline experience changed my mind this past fall. However, I'm much more judicious with the enhance knob. My basses are anything but thin.

As far as the bass with EQ running into a mess of knobs, is that that far off from running a Series bass into an F2B/1X and SF-2? Neither that setup or into an Eden WP100 has made my tone crappy.

But, to each their own. Who knows, maybe it's just that no one has the heart to tell me that my tone sucks.

lbpesq · « **Reply #39 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:03:21 PM »

Edwin:

I've heard you play. Rest assured your tone doesn't suck. In fact, I quite enjoyed it. But what do I know, for I am merely:

Bill, the guitar one

edwin · « **Reply #40 on:** January 19, 2011, 05:38:37 PM »

Thanks Bill, but we all know that one man's treasure is another man's suck!

I think the bottom line of this thread, as it is for many, is that if it sounds good to you and feels good to you, it is good, no matter what you have to do to get there and what others think.

Unlike the law, if you screw up, no one has to go to jail!

sonicus · « **Reply #41 on:** January 19, 2011, 06:23:02 PM »

Well Stated Edwin _____

bigredbass · « **Reply #42 on:** January 20, 2011, 06:11:07 AM »

Well, I'm glad you guys got the tresure part of it . . . it sounds OK, but the issues I've had otherwise . . . oh well, I know how to fix it. Eden's changed hands for the third time recently, and Nordschow has now launched his DNA line on his own. Never again . . . .

J o e y

811952 · « **Reply #43 on:** January 20, 2011, 06:17:56 AM »

I've gotten to the point (pun intended) with the Series bass to just run things flat. Everything I need is on the bass or in the hands. I do recognize that's not gonna work for everyone. Tuning the room is the FOH guy's gig. I'll keep my amp turned down and out of his/her way.

John

bigredbass · « **Reply #44 on:** January 20, 2011, 06:20:54 AM »

Yes, Edwin, alright, the standard disclaimer:

They're wonderful amps used by lots of right-thinking bassists, and it's a big wonderful world where we are all free to follow our ears to whatever works for each of us.

There . . . . the curmudgeon attack is easing off now . . . . all the vital signs are almost normal . . . . that red mist is a horrible thing.

I got my Metro/115 stack as Eden was making the bumpy transition from cottage industry to US Music ownership. It wasn't pretty. It's a sore subject. I'll behave, I promise. Excuse me, fellas . . . .

J o e y