Author Topic: Boogieman replacement board on EBay  (Read 1902 times)

longhorncat

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« Reply #15 on: September 17, 2012, 10:46:44 AM »
Jazzyvee
How would you describe the hum canceling pickup to someone that wasn't familiar with Alembic?
I'm sure he just wants people know it doesn't carry a musical signal.
If it was just a hole filler, there's no reason to have it wired up.
 
(Message edited by longhorncat on September 17, 2012)

lbpesq

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« Reply #16 on: September 17, 2012, 11:24:22 AM »
That is so, White!!
 
Yea, but in 20-25 years it will be off-white! lol
 
Bill, tgo

longhorncat

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« Reply #17 on: September 17, 2012, 11:39:45 AM »
Just tell people you're playing an early 80's Fender.
 
(Message edited by longhorncat on September 17, 2012)

edwin

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« Reply #18 on: September 17, 2012, 11:54:24 AM »
Humcanceller pickups can be thought of as being the shared pickups that the other pickups use to create a humbucker. The coils don't have to be right next to each other to be effective. I think using the term dummy pickup is misleading because it does, in fact, carry signal.
 
However, in this case, I would think anyone who would interested as a buyer or seller would know what's going on with them.

sonicus

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« Reply #19 on: September 17, 2012, 04:44:14 PM »
Is there  legal infringement  actually in progress with these  Boogieman  so called replacement upgrades ? First a Series PF6B/C copy and now these Series  I/II pickups with hum canceler.  Is this without Alembic's consent ?_____ If it is,___ in  my opinion  it is rather rude to say the least. I think it is not very  Hip  at all !   That is my sentiment about it and my opinion and 2 cents worth.

gtrguy

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« Reply #20 on: September 17, 2012, 07:02:46 PM »
Not to be a jerk, but for instance the F-2B is pretty much a copy of a Fender preamp found in many common old Fender amps from back in the day.  
 
However, as Mica stated, these boards do not an upgrade make. Also, Bartolini has been making drop in replacements for some time of these pickups.

tmoney61092

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« Reply #21 on: September 17, 2012, 07:07:11 PM »
while I do feel like there may be an infringement of some type here, if you follow this link(http://alembic.com/prod/pickups.html) you'll notice that Alembic makes pickups for Gibsons, Fenders, and Rickenbackers, so you can look at that as an upgrade and I feel like it's the same situation as with these Boogieman parts
 
~Taylor

sonicus

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« Reply #22 on: September 17, 2012, 07:52:16 PM »
I have been aware of Alembic's production of pickups that will fit other manufacturers instruments for as long as they have been around, however I feel that in this case it's like comparing Apples to Oranges.
 
David and Taylor , I can see your point but then I still feel that as Taylor states  While I do feel there may be a infringement of some type here  that Boogieman is  crossing the line  somewhat. The Series I /II PF6B/C circuit board mounted on a brass plate for example  and Series pickups with a hum-canceler , who else in current production uses this system ? ____ It just seems wrong to me.  
 
The fact remains that if you use these copycat parts that you can NO LONGER claim that your instrument is 100% original Alembic.

hammer

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« Reply #23 on: September 17, 2012, 09:44:39 PM »
I'm not sure if everyone has already seen Mica's response to the ebay listing but it would seem to suggest the good people at Alembic have neither provided consent nor been consulted.  The response of the manufacturer says it all.  
 
Q: You're using our trademarks, that is not cool and it needs to stop. You can email me at mica@alembic.com or call me at 707-523-2611. I prefer to handle these matters directly, rather than involving third parties or even ebay. Sincerely, Mica Wickersham Thomas Alembic, Inc.   Sep-04-12
 
A: First off, the only trademark that I know you have is for the name Alembic for musical instruments. If one wants to sell a dining table called Alembic , they are free to do so. You CAN NOT trademark electronic circuits , further this circuit is not the same as the 40 years old PF6 you are still offering. This board is offered as a Boogieman brand and as a replacement. However , if you have any recorded trademarks or patents (recorded before yesterday) for the circuit you claim this board imitates - please provide copies for review. Your argument is as laughable as if would Mercedes -Benz objects to GoodYear offering tires as a replacement for Mercedes-benz. Further, be advised that unless you can immediately provide documents that prove you have patents/trademarks for the above board, you are otherwise harassing me and I will contact Ebay. By the way , when you (and any other maker) started to make replacement pick ups for precision and jazz bass , did you had a OK from FENDER??????.... and last.....is business really that bad ?.....

Bradley Young

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« Reply #24 on: September 17, 2012, 10:08:46 PM »
Kinda bummed, I thought this would make an interesting upgrade for my beater fretless. But the dude sounds like he's a jerk, and doing business with jerks never, ever turns out well.
 
Has anyone actually tried a full setup?
 
Bradley

pace

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« Reply #25 on: September 18, 2012, 07:50:51 AM »
Printed circuit boards can be subject to copyright protection.  
 
I'm not sure if boogie man changed enough of the PF-6's nuances on the board for it to be safe....

sjhoffma

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« Reply #26 on: September 18, 2012, 10:13:02 AM »
Wow, that guy sounds like an ass!  
 
As far as I'm concerned, Alembic is known just as much (if not more) for their electronic work than anything else, despite producing incredible and breathtaking woodwork as well. If someone made a bass that was essentially the same specs as a series I or II, even if the electronics were different, it would still be infringement of the company (Fernandez anyone?)  
 
What is the justification that a company's trademark work can only be limited to wooden body shapes, and not electronics?  
 
All the fender replacement bodies you see for sale, regardless of the company making them,  are all either officially licensed through fender, or give credit to their trademarked Strat design.
 
If someone is making replacement pickups, especially replacements for a company that is known for their electronic work, it would stand to reason they need to give the same credit where credit is due, or atleast consult the company for their approval.

edwin

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« Reply #27 on: September 18, 2012, 10:54:12 AM »
OK, I should be careful here because I am in the limbo between law school and having a license, so I cannot provide legal advice. But, I will say that it's important to remember the different types of protectable intellectual property.  
 
When we say a company's trademark work, it's a bit confusing. Trademark usually refers to the name, logo, etc. but can also can refer to headstock shape, inlay type, etc. (see Fender, Gibson and PRS). What makes the trademark issue interesting is that it is not the functionality of the feature that is protected but the non-functional aesthetic aspects. So, trademark doesn't really help when it comes to functional designs like circuits and pickup design. What trademark is designed to protect is against the likelihood of confusion as to the source of the product. If the circuit board says BoogieMan in big letters and does not say Alembic, then there isn't much likelihood of someone thinking that it was made in Santa Rosa. It might argued that the shape and configuration of the two pickups and humcanceller in the middle could be a trademark configuration. When I see that, I certainly think Alembic.
 
But patent might useful. If the design is sufficiently unique and non-obvious (among other attributes), then it can get a patent. I don't know for sure if Alembic got a patent on its system (humcanceller, filters, etc.) but even if they did, it would have expired already unless they had managed to renew it. Given the huge cost of getting a patent, it might not even be worth it in this case, since it's not a design that is or would probably be in common use. Defending the patent would be pricey as well and licensing it would not bring in all that much revenue.
 
Copyright is also something that can be brought to bear and could apply to circuit board design. However, it would apply to the exact layout and design and it's not always clear if it is something the courts would uphold. Mike is right, if Boogieman changed the layout enough, even if the design is functionally the same, it is not protected. Where people have gotten into trouble is when the whole board is directly copied, sometimes even including the original in-house company designations and/or name and logo! Opening a device from Company B and finding a circuit board labeled Company M is a serious problem. I don't think that is the case here.
 
Trade secret can be used to protect intellectual property, but it is subject to reverse engineering, which in this case would be pretty simple. So, there isn't much help here.
 
At the end of the day, what really protects Alembic from Fernandes and BoogieMan and other imitators is not the legal world but the fact that real Alembic instruments are real Alembic instruments. We know the kind of care and craftsmanship that goes into each one and we know that it is extremely costly and difficult to match that. The reputations of Ron, Susan, Mica, et. al., including past contributors to Alembic who have gone on to their own stellar careers, make it clear that the real value is in the original instruments. When it comes to things like circuitboards, I don't see it as too consequential because to be really useful, you need an Alembic bass, which means that you already have the circuit board and the pickups and have little need of purchasing the copy. Alembic is largely protected because they are Alembic and anyone who gets something that is not Alembic knows that they are not getting the real deal. My sense is that Boogieman or other copiers of this type are not really going to make much out of this or put much of a dent in Alembic sales. I would imagine most of them just quietly disappear after a while.
 
Again, I'm not really a lawyer, I've only played one at final exams at school, so please do not base any action on any of these statements. Despite my analysis, there might be a very real argument to be made in court on behalf of Alembic. To quote Frank, I might be totally wrong. Hopefully one of our real lawyers can chime in.

keith_h

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« Reply #28 on: September 18, 2012, 11:00:22 AM »
No argument about the guy being a jerk.  
 
Not knowing the patent and copyright status of any of the circuits we can't say if this is legit or not. Reverse engineering is a valid method to perform product development as long as it is done so it doesn't infringe on any patents. There is certainly lots of room here for the Boogieman to not infringe and be a legitimate case of reverse engineering.
 
Keith

cozmik_cowboy

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« Reply #29 on: September 18, 2012, 12:15:21 PM »
Hmmm - I can't decide if I'm more shocked that it took this long for someone to put out a copy of the best, or that anyone would bother, since, as Edwin points out, anyone who would be interested in this would know it's not the real deal.
I was thinking that I might file this away as a cost-effective route in case I ever decided to try building a bass, or found an abused one that needed some EMGs pulled out or something, but since the guy has revealed himself to be an ass, forget that.
 
Peter
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