Author Topic: Gibson Guitars Raided by Feds for Suspected CITES violations (Read 886 times)

s_wood · « **on:** August 26, 2011, 09:23:12 AM »

Earlier this week agents of the Federal Fish and Wildlife Service raided Gibson's factories and offices in Nashville and Memphis looking for evidence that Gibson knowingly used illegally imported hardwoods in violation of the CITES treaty. It's the second such raid in two years.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424053111904787404576530520471223268.html

wideload · « **Reply #1 on:** August 26, 2011, 10:04:05 AM »

Why would they risk using illegal woods to build basses that sound like Gibsons do?
It's all about the HEADLINE. if they were interested in justice , they would raid the certified supplier, but then no one would know because it's not a recognizable name.
I guess this means Olympic is safe, huh?

oujeebass · « **Reply #2 on:** August 26, 2011, 08:41:12 PM »

Yeah, I was reading into this issue some more,and With all the regulations that were specified.... I wouldn't travel with any instruments outside the country, if you want to bring them back in.

lbpesq · « **Reply #3 on:** August 27, 2011, 08:46:21 AM »

Makes that guitar Taylor built out of a fork lift pallet a few years ago seem like a good idea!

Bill, tgo

s_wood · « **Reply #4 on:** August 27, 2011, 02:27:34 PM »

I imagine that older guitar companies, like Alembic or Gibson, have pre-CITES stashes of now-banned woods (like Indian rosewood) laying around. If challenged, how do they prove that the wood is lawfully possessed?

cozmik_cowboy · « **Reply #5 on:** August 27, 2011, 06:29:21 PM »

I think you mean Brazilian rosewood,Steve. It's been controlled for years; everyone uses Indian - if you see a rosewood acoustic these days, it's Indian.

Peter

hb3 · « **Reply #6 on:** August 29, 2011, 04:37:26 PM »

In this case it looks like it involves a shipment of rosewood improperly imported from India, so Indian Rosewood it is. From the original WSJ article:

But with the new raid, the government seems to be questioning whether some wood sourced from India met every regulatory jot and tittle.

Unless they're getting Brazilian rosewood from India.....

glocke · « **Reply #7 on:** August 30, 2011, 04:23:31 AM »

The thing that is curious is that USFW seems to be acting independently and using their own interpretation of foreign laws, as from what I understand the country in question has not filed a complaint, and Gibson also has the support of several conservation organizations.

From the sound of it, everything centers around the fact that American workers, and not Indian workers finished the wood??

hydrargyrum · « **Reply #8 on:** August 30, 2011, 06:31:40 AM »

Consider the recent experience of Pascal Vieillard, whose Atlanta-area company, A-440 Pianos, imported several antique B?sendorfers. Mr. Vieillard asked officials at the Convention on International Trade in Endangered Species how to fill out the correct paperwork?which simply encouraged them to alert U.S. Customs to give his shipment added scrutiny.

Situations like this one are the ones that particularly raise my ire. This company made efforts to observe the law correctly, and were penalized as a consequence. The message here seems to be that you are better off violating the laws than trying to work within them. It also gives the impression that regulatory agencies are more concerned with revenue than compliance.

cozmik_cowboy · « **Reply #9 on:** August 30, 2011, 06:48:54 AM »

I just reread the article linked, and it doesn't mention rosewood. It does say the name of the case is United States of America v. Ebony Wood in Various Forms. Here is another article that clearly states that the wood in question is not rosewood. But my previous post was addressing Steve's statement Indian rosewood was banned under CITES, which is the case of Brazilian, but not, AFIK, Indian, which I believe is controlled but not banned.

Peter

cozmik_cowboy · « **Reply #10 on:** August 30, 2011, 06:55:02 AM »

It also gives the impression that regulatory agencies are more concerned with revenue than compliance.

Surely not! Next you'll be telling me that cops give more speeding tickets to out-of-state plates because they're more likely to just pay rather than come back go to court!

Peter

hydrargyrum · « **Reply #11 on:** August 30, 2011, 07:00:49 AM »

Actually, the article you link to in your last post specifically mentions rosewood as one of the woods of concern.

A month later, agents observed Indian ebony and rosewood delivered to a storage facility for Gibson. The raid followed and workers were sent home.

(Message edited by hydrargyrum on August 30, 2011)

hydrargyrum · « **Reply #12 on:** August 30, 2011, 07:06:18 AM »

Have no doubt that I'm familiar with dealing with regulatory agencies. I work in the environmental field, and the last thing you want to do is seek guidance from an associated regulatory agency on how to be sure you're properly complying with regulations. It's a sure fire way to receive a inspection on the topic and any number of possibly unrelated fines. It still upsets me that this is the way they prefer to operate.

cozmik_cowboy · « **Reply #13 on:** August 30, 2011, 08:09:11 AM »

I can't get the link to work now, but I'm pretty sure it says they observed the delivery of both, seized the ebony.

Peter

hydrargyrum · « **Reply #14 on:** August 30, 2011, 08:37:00 AM »

http://www.deccanchronicle.com/channels/world/north-america/top-us-guitar-maker-accused-illegal-indian-wood-imports-559

According to legal documents US Customs agents detained a shipment of sawn ebony logs from India in June. A month later, agents observed Indian ebony and rosewood delivered to a storage facility for Gibson. The raid followed and workers were sent home.