Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Owning an Alembic => Troubleshooting => Topic started by: bassvibes on October 25, 2021, 03:11:48 AM
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I currently have a Spoiler - a great sounding bass- but I have a bit of a problem with the action. My tech set it up with 3/16 on E and 1/8 on G at 24th fret. My tech said the reason for the high action at the higher end of the neck is that there is a lot of fall off on the fretboard by design. This gives me a bit of a problem as I often play at the 'dusty' end of the neck up to around 21st fret on D and G strings. I am absolutely fine playing anywhere up to the 12th fret.
Is the higher action there typical on a Alembic Spoiler?
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I’d hesitate to say anything on an Alembic is “typical” because these are custom basses built by hand. I have several and the action is setup bit different on each so it I get minimal if any string buzz and the height works well with my style of play. I assume by fall off you are referring to to the radius of the fretboard. Is that correct? If the current string height isn’t working for you I’d bring it back to your tech if you don’t want to adjust it yourself. With its bridge, nut, and truss rods, and the possibility of different gauge strings, there are a number of differ ways one can make adjustments to the neck and fretboard of your bass in order to find something that works for you. Your playing up that high on the fretboard if it’s as much as you suggests begs for the acquisition of a 5-string Alembic with a high C.
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There is always Joey's Post On Setting Up Your Bass (http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=311.0). Just follow the instructions (and use the right tools).
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There is always Joey's Post On Setting Up Your Bass (http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=311.0). Just follow the instructions (and use the right tools).
^^^^ This.
Show it to your tech or have at it yourself.
As Brain mentioned these instruments are designed for functional adjustment and are built with meticulous craftsmanship.
If I understand correctly you want the action lower and the action gets higher as you go up the neck?
There allegedly have been rare instances when drastic humidity/ dry conditions have occurred where necks need to be re-set. Has this bass ever seen excessive moisture?
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So my bass is set up exactly as prescribed in Joey's bass notes measured at the 24th fret. This seems high to me.
Compared to my Ric the action is much higher on the Spoiler after the 12th fret and after the 15th fret is very difficult to fret.
The neck did need heat treatment but is stable now
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I typically set my small body short scale basses at the 12th fret with 5/64" (1.9 mm) for the E string and 1/16" (1.5 mm) for the G string. I don't know what that turns out to be at the 24th fret. I know of other members who use similar numbers for setting their string height. I set my relief at the 7th fret to .035" (.88 mm).
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I typically set my small body short scale basses at the 12th fret with 5/64" (1.9 mm) for the E string and 1/16" (1.5 mm) for the G string. I don't know what that turns out to be at the 24th fret. I know of other members who use similar numbers for setting their string height. I set my relief at the 7th fret to .035" (.88 mm).
I play with a pick and fairly hard attack. Honestly, I don't think I could get my action that low without a lot of fret buzz.
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Even if those numbers are to low for your playing style your bass should be capable of lower action than you have. Not knowing how much time was spent between neck adjustments I would go back and check those again. Some necks can take 24 - 48 hours to settle in after a truss rod adjustment allowing for over adjusting if not allowed to rest in-between turns of the truss rods. Your mention of the bass having needed a heat bend makes me lean to neck relief being involved. Of course without seeing the bass it is hard to say what needs adjusting or if the higher action is due to something else.
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I play with a pick at least 50% of the time and my measurements approximate those specified by Keith. I have no problem with buzz so it is certainly possible for a relatively aggressive player to have low action without any associated problems. It may take some playing around with things but after being VERY reluctant to do my own set-ups, I followed Joey's suggestions and ended up with a feel and functionality that suits me well. In fact, the process itself was quite instructive in learning about the differences in the fretboards and necks of my alembic instruments. Now doing a good setup on my fretless was another story.
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Now doing a good setup on my fretless was another story.
IMO setting up a fretless bass requires a more holistic approach. Measurements might give you a starting point from scratch but there is no real way to measure the fingerboard interference with the string that creates the mwah and swell we all look for. The only way to get things right is by making small adjustments and listening to the result. It is a much more time consuming process for me to setup my Orion 4 as the sweet spot to yuck is not that much requiring a light touch.
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Don't focus on measurements. Adjust to where you like the action, take it a little further to see if it is still playable, and bring it back a little if you've gone too far.
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It's measuring at just above 2.75 on 12th E string.
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The neck did need heat treatment but is stable now
How long ago was the neck reset?
Are you certain it was reset proper?
Paul (who asks the 2nd question with no disrespect… purely based on my own fears of anyone except Alembic resetting it)
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The neck had a back bow in it and the truss rod and string tension was not enough to counter the back bow so it was heat treated.
This was done about 3 months ago by a guitar tech in UK. I mentioned that my tech said it a had fall-away by design as per his email to me here...
"Fall-away is something that bass builders use or not depending on their understanding. As the neck is correct in the 1st 12th position - where the truss rod works, I have now set-up the guitar in this area. This leaves a higher action in the upper section due to the fallaway. The reason I know that this bass had massive fall-away is because you cannot put that fall-away into a neck with heat treating it"
Is the heat treatment same as a neck reset?
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I do NOT know. I used the term “reset” as a simile of “heat treatment”.
My understanding is that ‘heat treatment’ loosens the glues holding the neck laminates (and fingerboard) in place. The neck is then ‘reset’ and held in place while the glue re-cures…. So yeah, they are the same to me. A luthier may know better.
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It seems there is too much neck relief on your Bass. A neck where the strings got too high after the 12th fret seems bent forward to me.
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My basic test before starting to set my Basses is holding a string at the Body (like around the 20/21th fret) and by the 1st fret. At the middle of that String (around the 11th fret) you should expect little or close to zero clearence. It will be Zero in a perfect straight Neck but it can also happens in a back bow Neck. The difference is that the string is chocked dead in a back bow Neck and you have some amount of fret buzz in a straight Neck depending on how high is your Bass action (Bridge hight).
I always reach for the lowest action in the straightest Neck that I can set, but don't have any measurement to give you. In my Rogue I can barely pass a personal card below the string at the 11th fret with the string held at 1st and 20th fret. *(I'm not talking about credit card, I'm talking about those business presentation card... sorry I'm brazilian, don't speak english frequently, hope you get me).
Only after geting that straightness to the Neck that I start seting string hight. I don't measure it either, I lower them to taste. In my case, I avoid fret chocking but accept some string buzz. I aim for no buzzing when playing softly and a clicking, almost like a Slaping (or chick picking) tone, when hiting them hard.
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* I don't measure because what matters to me is the "feel", the right amount of stiffness/flexibility balancing with tone. Different Basses and mostly different String sets can produce tottaly different feellings to the same setings, so seems a little awkard talking about measurements.
I bend strings a lot and like playing light strings, most of my friends say they fell too floppy to them, though. I play Samba fingerstyle softly, they rock hard with pick. It is obvious we would never use the same setings on our basses.
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My basic test before starting to set my Basses is holding a string at the Body (like around the 20/21th fret) and by the 1st fret. At the middle of that String (around the 11th fret) you should expect little or close to zero clearence. It will be Zero in a perfect straight Neck but it can also happens in a back bow Neck. The difference is that the string is chocked dead in a back bow Neck and you have some amount of fret buzz in a straight Neck depending on how high is your Bass action (Bridge hight).
I always reach for the lowest action in the straightest Neck that I can set, but don't have any measurement to give you. In my Rogue I can barely pass a personal card below the string at the 11th fret with the string held at 1st and 20th fret. *(I'm not talking about credit card, I'm talking about those business presentation card... sorry I'm brazilian, don't speak english frequently, hope you get me).
Only after geting that straightness to the Neck that I start seting string hight. I don't measure it either, I lower them to taste. In my case, I avoid fret chocking but accept some string buzz. I aim for no buzzing when playing softly and a clicking, almost like a Slaping (or chick picking) tone, when hiting them hard.
So, just double checked again and the neck is spot on, just a little clink when I tap at the middle of the board. This conundrum is beyond me why the action is so high after the 12th fret. This is my only Alembic so I am not familiar with them as I am Fender and Rics.
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I’ve been reading through the thread but haven’t seen anyone mention the nut height on your bass. A too high nut will compound the string height the higher you go up on the fretboard. I set mine as low as possible while the open string just does not buzz at regular playing intensity.
Also, have you played around with adjusting bridge height? Both nut and bridge are so easily adjustable on Alembics that I always keep an appropriate hex key around.
Good luck sorting it out. Part of the fun playing these hi-performance instruments.
Cheers,
Oliver
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I've learned the hard way it's impossible to diagnose issues sight unseen over the web. The clearances you cite are VERY high, and the fact it took a heat-press to get there is concerning. This would tend to tell me the bass was not maintained with regular adjustments in its time before it got to you, and your tech felt this is what it would need to 'reel it back in'.
My method was a general 'field maintenance' for regular player axes in relatively good shape: No huge fret ruts or high frets, no big twist or deep relief, etc. The numbers I quote were a basic starter set, with the imprimatur to take them as a starting point to find your own personal setup numbers. There's a lot of BS out there, and my thought was to put setup method in terms of repeatable numbers, the same way the manufacturers and good techs do it. But it's for axes in the state I mentioned, and is NO replacement for a qualified tech for more serious concerns that this can't address.
I'd think a bass that required a heat-press would be outside of that situation, IF you're dealing with a qualified repair person. I'd be surprised if with a heat press, the neck could not be brought to a dead-straight relief state with the strings off, the frets leveled and re-crowned if required, then re-strung and set to suit. However I can easily see where the neck through would make it far more difficult to get all the neck as opposed to say, a Fender neck that can be removed completely. But again, this bass is not in front of me, nor do I know the experience and rep of your repair person. Sometimes, a guitar or bass is just not going to come back, time and wood have had their way too long to be brought back but it's rare.
Generally a 'neck reset' is referring to acoustics or electric guitars with a glued-in neck: The neck joint is generally warmed or steamed to loosen the glue, then you pull the neck out of the dovetail joint. This is not uncommon on some acoustics where you've run out of bridge saddle height and the neck angle needs to increase slightly, the same idea as shimming a Fender-type screw-on neck. You do some slight sanding on the tenon on the neck to lower the head end slightly, glue and reset, and now you have more 'maneuvering room' at the saddle or bridge, and you're on your way.
Heat Treatment on the other hand is taking the neck (either removed or in place on a neck-through), supporting the neck at both ends, then applying a heated bar to the fingerboard/ frets with a strategically-placed vice to push the neck straight with the truss rod relaxed. After a certain period of time, you kill the heat, leave everything vised up until everything comes back to room temp. IF everything went as hoped (it doesn't always . . . .), it will now stay straight, level the frets if necessary, then re-install, re-string, and the string load will introduce some relief that hopefully now the truss rod can bring to just right.
Again, I'm not there, but I'd continue to work with your tech to resolve this, or if necessary, get a 2nd opinion.
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Just to reiterate the main issue I have is the higher end of the fretboard. I don't see that heat treatment would affect that.
I know it's difficult to assess remotely but maybe a few pictures may help illustrate this.
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Thanks for the pics. But as Joey said, it's almost impossible for us to offer much in the way of suggestions without being able to really see the axe in person. Because to me, that 21st fret action looks pretty low.
I'll offer this though ... As Oliver suggests above, my preference for the adjustable nut is to make it like a zero fret. In other words, if you finger a low-F on the E-string, then observe the clearance the string has over the 2nd fret, I want that same clearance over the 1st fret when I play the open string. If the nut is higher than it needs to be it directly effects the entire action.
Jimmy J
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The nut seems unusually high, and the bottom of the nut appears to be resting on top of the screw head (of the outer two screws) where i would expect the screw head to disappear in the nut. Perhaps someone replaced those screws with ones with a wider head, not knowing how the adjustability is supposed to work.
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that nut/hardware is definitely not right. somebody's jacked with it. hopefully those counter-sink head screws weren't used to do some kind of funky repair. i would definitely disassemble that whole mess and do an assessment.
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I just pulled it apart. It does screw all the way down ok but the screws are not particularly sunk into the nut body?
See pics
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Another way to assess the nut height is to fret the second fret and look for string clearance over the 1st fret. There should only be a tiny bit of space. Almost too little to see, more like to be felt and heard as a small ping when the string hits the fret. Anything higher than that will make playing the bass harder than it needs to be.
Luckily your bass has the adjustable nut, so as soon as you restore it to its intended working ways it will be easy to set the height correctly. Maybe the owner’s manual (http://www.alembic.com/support/care.html) can shed some light on its operation.
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From these photos the nut actually looks fine, just have at it with finding the height that works for you. Good luck!
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I got a little confused with the bits showing in the opening between the base and the nut - definitely the right parts in the right places.
The two outer screws adjust to set the height, but the middle one needs to be loose, because it locks the nut in place when you tighten it. Not sure how to go about it with everything apart, but should be fairly easy.
Don't forget to lower the pickups next (see Joey's post again about how they must be adjusted), and finally lower the bridge (which is also sitting pretty high).
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Strangely as soon as I loosened the strings it was straight into a back bow. That truss rod is struggling
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Ah, well spotted. Somebody has replaced the two nut "hold-up" screws with ... well, it looks like wood screws. Yikes! This is likely a factor in your action adjustment issues.
The 3 adjustment screws on that nut are supposed to be allen-headed bolts. The two on the outside are meant to be headless, and threaded into the upper portion of the nut. Their job is to simply push up against the PLATE which should be the bottom bit of brass. The center bolt has a small head on it (possibly trimmed down in diameter) and is in charge of holding the nut down. It screws into a machine screw insert in the wood. Found this pic below showing the outside adjustors - (middle string of the 5 is covering the hold-down bolt).
Jimmy J
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I managed to get the nut down a bit before it start buzzing on open E.
The screws are allen head screws but they do seem a bit longer to other pictures of Alembics I have seen. This is my first Alembic so sorry I am such a newbie - its a massive learning curve (baptism of fire)
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Strangely as soon as I loosened the strings it was straight into a back bow. That truss rod is struggling
That statement gives me some pause … if you have a back bow with the strings loosened, shouldn’t your truss rod be “idle”, meaning the truss rod nuts should be completely loose? The truss rod works against too much forward bow, so if you still have tension on the truss rod I would try to loosen that first all the way and see what the neck is doing—maybe with the strings off? Then start adjusting the truss rod from scratch.
Hope this helps,
Oliver
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We're just all trying to figure out why the outer two bolts appear to have heads under the main part of the nut... That's not a normal Alembic setup, as far as I know. However, if the nut is secure and you're able to lower it to that "zero fret" position, it doesn't really matter what's weird about it.
Could we see the nut from the front - the string side? Or, could you take the center bolt out and lift the nut off at some point and take a pic? Just curious.
Jimmy J
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Thanks all for you help so far.
The bolts function fine and give me ability to get to zero fret but due to the current neck set up I can't get to zero fret without buzzing on the open string. Nor can I get the bridge any lower.
As for the back bow, unless it is a dual action truss rod it will only act against a forward bow. So my thinking is that only the string tension will counter the back bow.
Not sure any of the above will affect the upper fretboard action as the truss rod has no effect after the 12th fret.
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The bass is on it's way to Alembic so I will post the update when I know more. Thanks again
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The bass is on it's way to Alembic
probably the best course of action (pardon the pun) at this point. good luck, hope it's nothing serious.
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This is my first Alembic so sorry I am such a newbie - its a massive learning curve (baptism of fire)
There is nothing to feel sorry about. You have a problem, you are asking good questions and everyone is collaborating the best they can to help find a solution. Sometimes with out physically handling the instrument, words and pictures do not capture everything.
Paul (please let us know what they find at the Mothership)
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There is no reason to apologize for asking questions about your Alembic. We all started with little to no knowledge of how they are built and how to work on them. As a number of us have said without seeing the bass we can only provide suggestions however since it is on its way back to the Mothership I'm sure they'll be able to straighten (BeenDown started it) it out.
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The bass is on it's way to Alembic so I will post the update when I know more. Thanks again
Best of luck that it all gets sorted out quickly and painlessly.
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Malcolm and I have been emailing along side this thread. There's definitely some history this bass has been through. When it arrives we'll try and figure out how it got where it is and then go about getting it where it needs to be.
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An excellent turn of events!! Malcom will soon have a properly tweaked instrument.
Jimmy J
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yas... then there will be nothing to fret about.
nyuk nyuk nyuk.
sorry. couldn't help myself. 🤡