Alembic Guitars Club
Alembic products => Alembic Basses & Guitars => Topic started by: DanFrank on September 12, 2018, 05:06:01 AM
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Would some experienced Alembic players please comment on the tonal differences they've noticed in these pickup sets on earlier bass models (Spoiler, Persuader, Elan), and particularly how they affect a low-B string?
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You still searching for your unicorn?
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Yes Janine!
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Dan, I can't really comment on MXY's, but I can give direct comparison between two very similarly constructed Alembics. My Custom fretless 5-string was built around the critical specs of my Persuader 5-string. (remember that one?) Both have the 32" scale, 3 purpleheart neck laminates, mahogany body core, and maple tops. The electronics are similar too, though my Custom fretless has an added bass and treble boost/cut.
What's different is the pickups themselves. The '89 Persuader of course has the stock P/J set. (new replacement set from Alembic in 2014) The '17 Custom has an AXY in the neck position and am AXY 'FatBoy' in the bridge position. Both pickups are offset from the extremes by 5/8", which places them a good ways apart.
These two basses sound remarkably similar. In fact, I can make them sound indiscernably alike. But I'm not so sure it has that much to do with the pickups. I think it's a lot of things... the placement of them, the inherent nature of that P pickup and its location on the top, the electronics, the strings I use, (TI Jazz Flats on both) just too many variables to list.
All things being equal though, I have two Distillates, a fretted and a fretless, made within a couple years of each other, though one has a walnut top and the other, bubinga, their neck recipe' is the same, they are electronically identical... and they sound nothing alike. Go figure.
FWIW, I don't think there is a huge difference in the magnetic properties of MXY's vs. AXY's... I seem to remember reading here somewhere it was a matter of accomodating the wider string spacing. I'm less sure how they stack up against the Fender-shaped pickups. Hope some of that rambling is helpful. ;)
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Yes Janine!
Clever, I like that.
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Hi Greg! Thanks so much for the detailed description! Those are very nice basses.... love that custom fretless! As I understand it, the MXY is narrow and the AXY is a wider aperture. I was looking at a 5-string Elan that has Signature Electronics and PJ pickups and was wondering how different the tone may be compared to MXY's. The woods and finish of this Elan are not my preference though, so I'm not jumping at this point. But it has a lot of attributes that caught my eye, especially the Signature Electronics. I would imagine there is a lot of tonal flexibility with that package and it shouldn't be a concern that the pickups are PJ vs. MXY.
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Dan,
If this is the one you are referring to...
https://reverb.com/item/14824441-alembic-elan-2006-green-transparent
(https://reverb.com/item/14824441-alembic-elan-2006-green-transparent)
I can tell you that is the same one I was selling last year that you decided against. Only difference is that I was asking around $2500 where as the current seller wants $3500. Looks like the bass has traded hands at least a couple times since I sold it last spring. The current seller is not the person I sold it to.
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Dan, that is "Tiger Emerald" http://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=8537.0, built for Club Member, Joey (BigRedBass) he's not as regular around here anymore, but you might be able to get a message to him for some firsthand info on that bass.
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That was very helpful, Greg and J9. I'm surprised it is changing hands so much. After Joey's post, I wonder why he parted ways with it, as the same is true several times in the last couple years?
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Joey had a family medical issue that kinda' forced the sale of both his Alembics. In my conversations with him, I gathered he wasn't gigging out much at all, and could use the $$$ more at that time. Not sure about why anyone else would part with it. (other than for obvious profitable purposes...)
I do remember Joey telling me she was heavy.
Anyway, he's a class-act of the highest order, and if you're interested at all in that bass, he'll give you the unvarnished details. I wouldn't hesitate to email him.
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Not actually that heavy compared to other similar Alembics.
She weighs in at 10.6 lbs. Not that bad all things considered.
Here is the build sheet:
(https://images.reverb.com/image/upload/s--67d_3FcA--/a_exif,c_limit,e_unsharp_mask:80,f_auto,fl_progressive,g_south,h_1600,q_80,w_1600/v1515623519/prvnar4m2j0yqdak40q3.jpg)
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There are at least 4 people here that have owned that bass.
1. Joey
2. Joe
3. Me
4. Spencer
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MXY and AXY are identical internally - think of an MXY as an AXY in the smallest possible case. An AXY shell can hold a wider aperture FatBoy pickup, which is essentially an AXY wound on a larger Series I/II magnet.
Both the P and J pickups have a narrower aperture than the MXY/AXY pickup. We tend to like wider apertures for pickups as they have the biggest "eye" looking at the strings' movement.
All of our pickup/electronics systems are quite revealing of what the wood is doing before any electronics interact with it. So the choice should primarily be based on the primary neck wood (Maple is brighter, Mahogany warmer), if Ebony is int he neck (longer fundamental sustain). The neck is about 75% of the tone from the woods in our instruments. Even though the neck is bossy, the body woods matter too. Don't want to derail this topic into a discussion on the tone of wood, so I'll just summarize saying that you should like how the bass sounds unplugged, because you are going to get more of that when you plug it in.
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Thank you for clearing that up, Mica! I have a much better idea of the differences now. My Spoiler neck is a 7-piece maple/purple heart with a mahogany body and walnut top wood. I love the tone and it gets many compliments, especially on the low B & E strings, but I sometimes feel that the higher strings don't cut through the mix as much as I'd like. That's why I was hoping to find a Signature Electronics package and close to the same wood combination or similar. I already checked the gain pots in the Spoiler and they were already set at their maximums when I bought it. I was thinking about adjusting the height of the pickups but have not touched it yet. Thanks again!
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Well, you might try tilting the pickups on the treble side so they are closer to the strings or you will not get more out of the higher string relative to the lower strings. You might try heavier strings on the D and G. What you are hearing is likely what every pro I have ever talked to tells me - that especially the G string is avoided because it just can compete with the heavier strings. There's a tradeoff in keeping the tension more even, which yields the results you are observing, or using heavier gauge (and likely higher tension) strings that have more mass to produce the desired sound. I know some players that avoid the G string if physically possible, and strike it harder when unavoidable to even things up.
The trimpots are for the gain across all the strings, so they will not change what you are observing, just the highest available volume of it.
I don't actually think you will find any difference with any electronics set - you are just getting really good at listening. This is a blessing and a curse!
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Thanks again Mica! I'll take that advice and maybe try to move the pickups on the treble side a little closer and see what happens. I also tried medium gauge strings in the past but they are a bit harder on the fingertips. I use the D'Addarrio Pro Steels. I typically turn the filter wide open and Q is on and it gives me chime-like highs and a deep low-end, but the G and sometimes the D can feel a bit "thin." I didn't want to move the Pickups for fear of negatively affecting the B & E, which are crystal clear with a deep low end! :-) Thanks so much for your advice!
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I have done exactly what you are suggesting there Mica on my 4 string Elan which has two sets of P-style pickups. Lifting the treble side pickups closer to the string as I was finding when playing with the filter closed or nearly closed there was a significant drop in volume as I moved up the neck on the D and G strings compared to the A and E strings. Not good with reggae..... It is less noticeable with the filters more open or when on the bridge pickup only. I only needed to do this on the neck pickups and i ended up lowering the E & A a bit as well and now I have the right balance for everything. I have it in mind to go slightly heavier with the string gauge next time I change them on my Elan.
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Jazzee, did the E & A output become lower by the same adjustment you made to raise the output for the D & G-strings? That's exactly what I DO NOT want to happen and why I didn't make a modification yet until I understood it better. I would like to raise the output of the D & G while keeping the other stings unchanged. But I assume that changing one side only and keeping the other strings unchanged may not be possible. What is the largest gauge string that would be recommended for the D & G? I have been using the D'Addario Pro Steel light gauge, which are .065 & .045, respectively. The other three strings are 080, .100, & .130. Is there a thread here that one would recommend for pickup height adjustment?
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That's the wonderful thing about changing the pickup height - it's 100% reversible! You can fearlessly adjust at will, and put things right back where you started. You can mark the current level with a piece masking tape and find the original setting again quite easily.
I think you would notice the cutoff of the filters with any pickup height setting, Vince. When you have the frequencies dialed down, and you play high notes, some of them are higher than the cutoff frequency and get rolled off.
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haha mica, I found that one out mica so ended up making changes and checking things until I found a level that seemed balanced based on where I set the filters. It's really something I needed to spend a bit of time with, changing the height, check the filters and string to string balance and adjust again where needed. Before I moved anything I did measure the height of both sides of the each pickup so I could indeed go back. It can be time consuming to find the right place but it was worth it.
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I custom ordered the green Elan with the idea of it being a take on the rage about Sadowsky, etc. Jazz basses. Thus, the 'white woods' (ash wings, maple neckthru) to keep it in a Fender-ish wood menu.
I've always preferred a P/J combination to the doubale Jazz pickup layout.
The bass turned out magnificently once Susan translated what I was after into Alembic-ese, if you will, and it was her idea add the Sig electronics into the build, and as always, her advice was impeccable. It does some more choice vs. a traditional vol/fade/tone, and it was a conscious decision to be very Alembic and use filters instead of active bass/treble.
It turned out exactly as I envisioned, and it had some heft to it, but was by no means too heavy for me, IIRC it weighed around 10.5 pounds.
After a lifetime of clubs, drunks, druggies, and disappointments, I no longer gig, and I frankly bought it just for me, kind of as a reward for going through all that crap for all those years.
Three years ago, my wife required back surgery which ultimately was unsuccessful, and has led to her being partially disabled. Our income was cut in half suddenly as a result, and although we smartly had very little debt, and I had great medical insurance, nonetheless for a year we were really scratching to find our way through, and I sold both Alembics. I couldn't complain, I'd owned them both virtually for free, and sold both thru the Club. The idea of paying 8 months mortgage vs. keeping them and really struggling was not even a question, so off they went, and that was that. She comes first.
In terms of a low B, the green axe had the best low C's and D's I ever heard (your results may vary), I'd hear that low 'beat' of the first several harmonics.
The other Alembic was a five-string Spoiler with FatBoys, though it obviously had AXY's originally. Versus the P/J, I'd say the AXY's or FatBoys have more of a 'modern' tone to them, more in the vein of Barts or EMG's. The AXY's (and by extension, the MXY's) in comparison to FatBoys I'd describe this way: AXY's remind me of utterly clean studio monitors, while FatBoys would seem more like very good hi-fi speakers, maybe not as brutally precise, but with a slightly more visceral rendering, maybe just a bit of a Music Man vibe. Both are very good, and very clean.
Those vs. the P/J setup: The P/J is a very clean and strong Alembic version of a tone you probably know already, far more traditional than the AXY presentation.
In my experience, all of them were silent electronically.
Best of Luck.
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Thanks for the input Joey! Interesting background on the bass and hope your future outlook is happy for you and your wife. I'm thinking about it but unsure if I truly like the transparent green finish. My '86, 5-String Spoiler is doing the job but I want to find another 5-string Alembic with upgraded electronics and I would prefer the dark woods, walnut, coco bolo, with a maple/PH neck. I would also take LED's as a great upgrade for my aging eyes but that's not going to drive my decision. My Spoiler is a 32-inch scale but I wouldn't mind going to the long scale with the longer upper horn of the Elan. The spacing is very close on that Elan, which is good for me because I play mostly with a pick. I think it's going to sit at that price for awhile, so I'm thinking about it for now. Thanks again!
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Whenever that bass green elan has come up for sale i have considered giving it a stable home. Yummy to the max! Interesting the p pickup having the bass side further back than the treble.
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It was a conscious decision to use the white woods in conjunction with Fender-ish pickups to yield essentially a very good Jazz tone, on steroids, thus the Fender woods of maple and ash. The ebony fingerboard adds zing on top of that to boot. As such, it's not as sophisticated a tone you see in other Alembics with all the 'brown' woods and wide-aperture pickups, it wasn't designed for that. It cuts thru any mix, and the whole idea was to be THE Fender that Fender never built, and with Ron's electronics, achieve that familiar tone on a much more sophisticated level with more control, and it delivers it in spades. It's one man's idea, and not for everyone, but it certainly fulfilled the ideas I had.
I always prefer tinted axes. As amazing as the woods that Alembic uses and understandably look funny in anything except clear, ultimately to me, they . . . just . . . look brown. Though I would make an exception for an Alembic translation of those amazing all-Koa Taylor acoustics. Maybe one day . . . . .
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Jazzee, did the E & A output become lower by the same adjustment you made to raise the output for the D & G-strings? That's exactly what I DO NOT want to happen
Hey Dan, anytime you got D and G louder, E and A will be "lowered" in a way. It is a balance issue but is what you got if you really want them to be closer in output, don't? If your brother grows taller you'll not look as big as before, even if you didn't change. But even if you have to lower the bass side it will changes nothing if you raise your overall volume to compensate the signal drop. That is why I opted to not use trimpot gain or bass master volume fully open, I can always compensate differences like that (and having a handy boost to solo at fingertips, too!). You can use a boost or simply compensate any change at amp's (or pedal) input gain.
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Thanks much for your input, Joey and Mario! I would love to play that bass first before buying but they are too far from my location. I really love the electronics package on that bass. In the meantime, I will try adjusting the pickup height to raise the level of the D & G and possibly increase their gauge size as well. I learned a lot on this thread and I appreciate it very much!!
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Halving PUs distance to strings from where it is now (or PU side relating to the other) may increase the signal in +6dB. Any doubling gives you around -6dB.
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This is back on sale again on Reverb
I do wonder what it is about the bass that it doesn't find a permanent home.
https://reverb.com/uk/item/47609049-2006-alembic-custom-clb5
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I wholeheartedly agree with Mica that tilting the PUs should be tried but that strings and string gauges make a LOT of difference. Not all G-strings are made alike and its worse with C-strings. I use flats most of the time (TI) and love the Thomas-Infeld E, A, and D strings. However, I don't appreciate the G at all. On all my basses it just sounds dead. Tilting the PUs has helped a bit with loudness but I'm still experimenting with various G strings and different string gauges to try to get closer to the sound I want to hear.
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I do wonder what it is about the bass that it doesn't find a permanent home.
If I win the lottery, it's going back to Joey :-)
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I think the main thing for this bass is the Classic taper. It's not for everyone, although I think people can adapt more than they know to narrow spacing. Tight string spacing on a five string is SO much less fatiguing to play.
Using a heavier gauge on the G string will help, but eventually the tension disparity get you. But there's no escaping the physics. The smaller mass just doesn't compare to the tone of the other strings. Every single pro player I know avoids the G string if they can reach the note on another string. Look at Tony Levin - he didn't evven let the G string on his bass!
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And on the topic (how did I not reply to this one yet..?)
To me they all sound like Alembic, I'm pretty sure satisfaction would have been equal if I had gone for AXY/MXY instead of JPJ on my Elan. :-)
There are some clips on our Youtube channel with the JPJ Elan and AXY Spoilers (also with Isolated bass tracks): https://www.youtube.com/user/DamagedJusticeNLD/videos
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The P pickups are definitely the loudest pickup we make.
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They do have a huge sound. Out of pure curiousity, would it be possible to make a series bass with P-Style pickups?