Alembic Guitars Club
Connecting => Miscellaneous => Topic started by: rustyg61 on September 07, 2016, 08:51:06 AM
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I recently started playing bass for my church & they use in ear monitors, but they ones they supply (Westone) make my bass sound like a tin can! Do any of you use in ears & if so, what kind do you use? I have done a ton of research lately, but all the companies say the same thing about their product, & the reviews are mostly from singers & monitor engineers. I want to hear from bass players who will vouch that their bass sounds great in their in ears. Obviously I want good bass response, but I don't want fat boomy bass. I prefer a tight articulate bass that cuts through the mix & I can hear each note I'm playing. We have a full orchestra & choir, but mostly what will be in my ears is bass, drums, guitars, piano, & lead vocals. We each have our own monitor mixer to set levels, so balance isn't a problem, but I'm used to great tone with my AccuGroove cabinets, so I want the best tone I can get with in ears too. I know the custom fit models are pricey, but I'm open to all options.
Thanks for your advice!
Rusty
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Hey Rusty-
I've been using in-ears exclusively for a little more than 10 years now. From my experience, to get good bass response in-ear you have to have isolation. The in-ears have to seal out all other sound. I've only been able to achieve that with custom fit.
For me, Sensaphonics is the best out there. They are the only one (that I know of) using silicone for the entire shell. It isolates better and is the most comfortable. It's a dual driver, but I couldn't ask for any better, cleaner, flat response.
https://store.sensaphonics.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2X%2DS (https://store.sensaphonics.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2X%2DS)
I also use Gorilla Ears. They are an acrylic shell. Are well made and a bit more reasonable in cost. I have a triple driver from them that pretty well matches the Sensaphonics in response. They don't isolate quite as well, but are much easier to get in and out.
http://shop.gorillaears.com/collections/gx-series/products/gx-3?variant=286945604 (http://shop.gorillaears.com/collections/gx-series/products/gx-3?variant=286945604)
Good luck on the search!
C-Ya................wayne
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Thanks so much Wayne! I'll look into both of those!
Rusty
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Wayne, are yours custom fit or universal fit?
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Universal aren't too bad for vocals but tend to let in too much outside sound for most musicians. For both in ears and earplugs I used custom fit gear set up by an audiologist. When I had mine fit I also had a hearing test performed as it was covered under my insurance. Surprisingly they also picked up all of the cost of the earplugs due to me having a sufficient enough hearing loss in my left ear to warrant taking action. YMMV.
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Hey Keith
Did your insurance cover the cost of in-ear monitors or just earplugs?
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Hey Keith
Did your insurance cover the cost of in-ear monitors or just earplugs?
Just the earplugs but we were able to have the molds returned so they could be reused which saved me some money.
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Cool... good info, Thanks!
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Custom. As Keith said, that's the only way to get the isolation needed to have good bass response.
I also have custom fit musician's earplugs from Sensaphonics with interchangeable filters to reduce the level by either 9, 15, or 25 dB. The filters are by Etymotic Research and give a flat response. It's like turning the volume down, no stuffing cotton in your ears. I also have a set of solid plugs that I use in extremely loud environments where tone quality is not an issue (approximatley 30 dB reduction).
Sensaphonics will make several items from a single set of impressions on the same order. I'm sure other makers will too.
+1 on having a hearing test done while you're at the audiologist for the impressions.
C-Ya..........wayne
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I've been through this whole deal and spent way too much money trying to find the best system. For huge deep bass, nothing beats the Future Sonics MG7 Pro. They are useless as far as general listening goes, as the frequency response is too lumpy and they are too sensitive for iPhones, etc., but for onstage bass playing, nothing beats them. IF you get a good fit. That's where I had problems. I went back and forth too many times and what it came down to is that there only seems to be one guy in Colorado who can really make the impressions properly (George Cire) and I didn't know about him when I had them made. If I were wealthy, I'd get him to make some new impressions and jump on these in a heartbeat. The only other time I've heard that kind of low end depth was playing through Mike Gordon's Meyer rig. The MG7s don't give you the thump of a double 18 in terms of hitting you in the chest, but they give you everything else about deep, deep, bass. And it's not one note bass, every note is clear, distinct, and articulate. Some IEMs are simply hyped and it just sounds bloated rather than truly deep.
I also have the MG5 Pros and they are excellent. Still really good bass, but very balanced and listening to music is a joy with these things. Future Sonics are all single dynamic driver IEMs, so their high end is very smooth and the low end blows away all the balanced armature IEMs, although some come close.
Future Sonics also make a universal IEM, but the problem with them is too much bass. And the seal isn't nearly what the custom fit versions are. You can, however, get sleeves that improve the situation. The rest of my band uses them and likes them a lot, but they've never experienced the custom molded IEMs.
So, after all that hoopla and raving about Future Sonics, what do I use every day? Sensaphonics. Two reasons: 1) George Cire did the impressions (I found out about him from the Sensaphonics website, no matter who you buy from, I recommend using their recommended audiologists) and 2) they are not a hard mold but a soft silicone that has a lot more give. So the seal is much, much better. I bet that if George did the impressions for my Future Sonics, my search would have ended there, but I'm glad I threw down for the Sensaphonics. For on stage use, they are hard to beat. I have the basic dual driver model. They do suffer a little bit from being a balanced armature design, so they aren't as hifi or as deep as the MG5 pros, but they are quite good. For that reason, I don't use them for listening for pleasure or mixing.
I would be remiss if I didn't mention Etymotic ER4XRs. They are a brand new model, so I haven't tried them, but I am very tempted to upgrade my plain old ER4 to them. The ER4s, despite being a balanced armature design, have some of the best frequency response of any IEM and certainly give a bunch of high end headphones a run for their money. Where the standard ER4s fall down is in big bass. They have low end, but it's not that huge. The ER4XR is supposed to be even better all around, but especially improved in the low end. They are also the second best seal to Sensaphonics, despite not being a custom molded IEM. I was skeptical about these for a long time, but now that I have a pair, I have to say that I love them. They sound fantastic, seal well, and are not that expensive, compared to a custom molded IEM. I would agree with the above that custom is the only way to get good isolation with the exception of the Etymotics. The isolation is that good.
One of the big issues for me is tinnitus. I have a far amount of it, so I cannot play without ear plugs, but even better is IEMs. I need isolation if I am going to be able to gig. I even lug around a splitter and a computer driven digital mixer to do my own mixes, except at festivals where I don't have time to set it up. It makes all the difference in the world to have great sound and not have my ears blown out.
And Wayne is right as far as other products from Sensaphonics. I have two pairs of their earplugs and have thought about getting a set of sleeves for the Etymotics. They do great work.
They typically do a holiday sale around Christmas time that is well worth jumping on. It can save you $100 or so for the lower priced IEMs and even more as you go up.
One last thing about Sensaphonics. If you have the scratch, they have a system where there are mics built into the IEMs and the belt pack can mix the mics back into the send from the monitor mixer. I haven't tried them, but it seems very cool. If you have $2k to drop on the system. Friends of my mine swear by them and will often just use the mics. You can also utilize a send to record what you are hearing. It's worth scoping out their website to see all the cool things they do.
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Hey Rusty,
How about a good pair of headphones? Or maybe a good stereo equalizer could give those Westones some ... TONE?
The next step might be to try a pair of Shure generic fit units. Check their SE215, SE315 or SE425, depending on how much you want to invest in the experiment.
The problem with custom fit products is that you can't exactly test and compare different manufacturers without spending a fortune.
I'm currently using the cheapest model of Jerry Harvey's in-ears monitors "JH5". jhaudio.com (http://jhaudio.com) Jerry was one of the founders of Ultimate Ears and then spun off his own company few years ago. These are 2-way units with one low-frequency and one high-frequency driver for each ear. I think they're plenty loud and sound quite musical. Beyond the gig I also use them for anything I need to listen to on the road. They're great on airplanes too.
You can now get IEMs with up to EIGHT drivers in each ear - though how they do that is beyond me. In my opinion, trying to balance the sound across 8 drivers and presumably several crossovers would result in a "lumpy" frequency response - as Edwin mentioned above.
If you don't mind the isolation of in-ears they can be pretty beneficial. It allows you to have the mix you want while keeping the overall level low. Plus with no amp onstage you prevent the bass from leaking into every open mic and that makes for a much cleaner sound at FOH.
Good luck with your quest!
Jimmy J
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My experience - when I use in-ears, I use Shure se425 ears with a PSM900 system. I use the stock, black foam, no custom fit. I like a little bleed, and don't like total isolation. Up until I started using in-ears, I was adamant about miking the bass amp to get the best tone. But once I tried ears with DI, I realized just how great the tone could be without miking the amp. My tone is pretty raw Entwistle/Squier/Lee, with a little more punch and low end. If you like a more refined hi-fi sound, my experiences may not apply.
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Thanks so much for all of your advice! I still haven't decided on which ones to get, but it will be a custom fit IEM. I have located an audiologist in Houston who is recommended by some of the brands, so I will use her for my molds. I recently sold some gear so I have around $1200 to spend, so I want to get top quality IEM's. My live rig is a F-2B & SF-2 going into an AccuGroove El Whappo or Wedgie cabinet, so I'm spoiled with amazing tone & want to get the best IEM I can. I know none of them will replicate what I'm used to hearing, but hopefully I can come close.
Here are the ones I'm currently considering, if you know anything about these particular models or brands, please let me know.
Brand Model Price Drivers Freq Resp. Sensitivity Bores Impedance Isolation
64 Audio A8 $1400 4L 2M 2H 10Hz-20K 117dB 4 18 Ohms -26dB
Ultimate Ears UE11 Pro $1150 2L 1M 1H 5Hz-22K 119dB 2 18 Ohms -26dB
Alien Ears G16 $800 4L 2M 2H 10Hz-20K 132dB 4 18 Ohms -30dB
JH Audio JH16 Pro $1225 4L 2M 2H 10Hz-20K 118dB 3 18 Ohms -26dB
Sensaphonics 3Max $1050 2L 1H 20Hz-20K 114dB 1 14.2 Ohms -37dB
Gorilla GX-4b $799 2L 1M 1H 20Hz-20K 120dB ? 20 Ohms -28dB
Future Sonics MG6 Pro $900 (1) 13mm 18Hz-20K 114dB 1 32 Ohms -20dB
Clear Tune CT-6E $1000 2L 2M 2H 20Hz-20K 115dB 3 23 Ohms -26dB
Westone ES 60 $1300 2L 2M 2H 8Hz-20K 118dB 2 46 Ohms -25dB
Jimmy, I'm currently wearing my Senheiser 280 Pro headphones when I play in church, but they are too big & bulky & look bad when everyone else is wearing in ears. So I want to get some high quality in ears that will do justice to my Alembics & also be able to clearly hear the drums, guitars, piano, & vocals. We have a full orchestra but I won't be putting them in my mix, less is better for me to hear what I'm playing. So I do need good isolation so the strings & brass don't bleed in too much. How does your bass sound in your in ears compared to how it sounds on your recordings? Your tone is the benchmark I use when I set up my rig, so if you can get your trademark tone using the JH buds, that would be a huge endoesement for them!
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Rusty,
Thanks for the kind words about my tone. You may be more of an audiophile than I am in this case but I'm sure all of the models you've listed sound great... I'd guess that there are only one or two companies on the planet which actually make the drivers in the devices sold by these 9 companies. Here's something interesting I just came across, fyi:
https://brianli.com/in-ear-monitors-balanced-armature-drivers-vs-dynamic-drivers/
Fit is really important and can vary based on the shape of your ear canal... I tried some soft silicon molds once but I could hear my bones - like a thud if I stomped my foot. Quite disconcerting! I actually liked the generic Shures with the foam inserts. Basically like a foam earplug with sound being fed in. They were comfy and had a good seal but a bit awkward for everyday use.
So back to your question, I'm a tone guy when it comes to producing sound but maybe less so when it comes to reproducing it. Ha! I've worked in studios most of my life and gotten used to making do with whatever the headphones might sound like. As long as I can hear what I need to hear to play with the band I can deal with it. In fact, if the studio's headphone mix is TOO good it can be a let down to go in and hear it in the control room. Better to have a weak phone mix but be pleased with the sound in the booth than the other way around.
This may also apply with my current live operation. I KNOW that the sound of my bass in the PA is the way I like it, even if what I'm hearing onstage may not be the most hi-fi experience. My simple 2-way (balanced armature) JH5s serve the purpose for me. They allow me to hear what I need to hear, including relatively good low-end - at a fairly low overall volume.
They're also comfortable and I can wear them all day if need be. But if I smile real big they lose their seal and I need to nudge them back in. (I'm working on some kind of facial move that would pop them completely out. It would be a great party trick!)
So I'm used to these, they feel good and sound fine for what I need. But again, they probably are not the most hi-fi IEMs available so I won't "endorse" the product. These just work for me.
One more thing to think about is a good amp to drive them. Avoid using a wireless pack if you possibly can as that is one more considerably heavy step on the sound. I'm using an amp made by a company called Headroom which has a "delayed cross-feed" thing to simulate listening to speakers, plus some minimal eq. There are some great HiFi amps from Grace, Meridian, etc., if you want to go completely nuts!
Happy searching!
Jimmy J
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...So back to your question, I'm a tone guy when it comes to producing sound but maybe less so when it comes to reproducing it. Ha! I've worked in studios most of my life and gotten used to making do with whatever the headphones might sound like. As long as I can hear what I need to hear to play with the band I can deal with it. In fact, if the studio's headphone mix is TOO good it can be a let down to go in and hear it in the control room. Better to have a weak phone mix but be pleased with the sound in the booth than the other way around.
I've just been lurking on Rusty's thread here, mostly because I haven't any experience at all with IEM's, and therefore nothing to add. It was strictly for educational purposes, in case I ever did. But then this snippet of Jimmy J's reply just tied my brain in a square knot. Pretty much equates to "Use The Force, Luke..." ;D
I need to be more disciplined, especially in the studio, but onstage too. Trust the bass, trust the engineer. Going to go write that 100 times now...
Great thread guys. 8)
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...So back to your question, I'm a tone guy when it comes to producing sound but maybe less so when it comes to reproducing it. Ha! I've worked in studios most of my life and gotten used to making do with whatever the headphones might sound like. As long as I can hear what I need to hear to play with the band I can deal with it. ...
I've just been lurking on Rusty's thread here, mostly because I haven't any experience at all with IEM's, and therefore nothing to add. It was strictly for educational purposes, in case I ever did. But then this snippet of Jimmy J's reply just tied my brain in a square knot. Pretty much equates to "Use The Force, Luke..." ;D
I need to be more disciplined, especially in the studio, but onstage too. Trust the bass, trust the engineer. Going to go write that 100 times now...
Great thread guys. 8)
Likewise, I've been lurking in hopes of picking up some things for when I get IEMs (I'll have to show Jimmy how to grimace so fiercely those babies will pop across the stage. Maybe the whole band can do it during "Your Smiling Face"). Oops, I digre
Anyway, your comment about trusting the engineer(s) brought to mind a nifty technique I discovered by accident back when I was playing with Roomful of Blues in the 80s, and it's never let me down. We had a gig at the Hatch Shell in Boston with a couple of other bands and everybody was complaining about the soundmen. It sounded fine to me (especially for an outdoor venue with thousand of spectators), so I wandered over to the board during the opening acts and struck up a conversation with one of the engineers. Apparently they were in a surly mood from people "commenting" about the sound, so I struggled to think of another topic.
I blurted the first thing that came to mind; "so, uh ... Who's your favorite painter?" He looked at me kinda funny and named somebody (I don't remember who) and added; "why do you ask?" I winged it. "Because what you do seems like the same thing, only you use sound instead of paint." Holy cow. It was like watching rain clouds evaporate. The dude positively beamed.
All I can say is that when we hit the stage, the sound was superb. He waved to me from the board, I gave him a thumb's up and life was sweet. (He probably waved at the complainers, too, but at least with me he used his whole hand instead of just one finger.)
Ever since, I've asked the same question to every engineer I've worked with, and it has a dramatic effect on their attitude (it works even better with other musicians). It's one of those things that has no downside, either, because it's honest, and the answer isn't the important part, it's just that I asked the question. Four little words. Does anybody mind being considered an artist? There ya go.
Whenever I read about people who regard engineers and soundmen as some kind of nemesis, I always think; "don't they realize that if there's anybody you don't want to piss off, it's sound engineers?"
To paraphrase Benjamin Disraeli-Gear's advice about dealing with royalty (http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/quotes/b/benjamindi134364.html);
"Everyone likes flattery; and when you come to [soundmen], you should lay it on with a trowel."[/size]
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Thanks so much for the link Jimmy! That shines a whole new light on what I have been looking at. It would seem that hybrid with a dynamic driver for lows & balanced armatures for the highs would be the way to go.
Thanks also for your insight on the silicone models having too good a seal. I don't want the "ears full of water" effect. The stage sound at my church is not that loud so I think any custom mold set would seal out the ambient sound well enough.
I can see where you are coming from being happy with your live tone as long as you can hear what you are playing, but I also like to enjoy my tone as I listen to what I'm playing. I bought an SF-2 just to tweak my stage sound. My signal chain is F-2B to Radial DI to SF-2 to power amp to speakers. So I can adjust the SF-2 without affecting the FOH. I guess my main concern is to find some IEM's that are responsive to tone adjustments & can handle a low B without distorting or sounding bloated.
When I read this comment "I'm working on some kind of facial move that would pop them completely out. It would be a great party trick!" I immediately picture the "Panic Pete doll whose ears bulge out when you squeeze him!
We use Aviom headphone mixers so each player can adjust his own mix. It has bass & treble & even pan along with 16 channels so you can set the levels of each instrument or vocal to your liking. Everything is hard wired, no wireless units. Using my Senhieser headphones I can get a good sound on my bass & the rest of the mix. So I'm not sure if I could use another headphone amp in conjunction with the Aviom.
Thanks again for your input!
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I've pretty much given my opinion, but I will say that, with regards to Rusty's excellent chart of different models, we should take the provided specs with a grain of salt, especially where isolation is concerned. Without knowing the methodology of testing, it's hard to know the baseline for each of the different models.
Interesting that you should mention painters, Ed! My wife is a painter and for her birthday on Sunday we went to the Denver Art Museum to see the Women in Abstract Expressionism show (it was doubly interesting for me because my parents knew a lot of the artists and when I was Xander's age, they would drag me to gallery after gallery in NYC to see them and more. Now I got to bring Xander to have the same experience! He did love this part, though: https://www.facebook.com/edwin.hurwitz/videos/10154467849049134/?l=1096823762737530593). It got me to thinking that it would be kind of inspiring to have art like that within sight while playing, so I'm going to have to figure out to do that. Everyone has pictures of their kids on their amps, etc. I'm thinking of a de Kooning or Frankenthaler instead. In any case, great psychological move! It's a win/win for everyone!
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/women-of-abstract-expressionism_us_5771350ae4b017b379f67628
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Cool video Edwin!
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Well, just to bring this thread & my search to a conclusion, I just ordered a set of 64 Audio A8's. https://www.64audio.com/product/1964-A8-Custom-In-Ear-Monitor They are specifically made for bass & drums & each bud has 4 low, 2 mid, & 2 high balanced armatures. I talked to some bass players who have them & love them. They say they have tons of bottom & crystal clear highs, so I'm sure I will love them! I sent my ear impressions off today so hopefully I'll have the buds in a coup,e of weeks. I paid for a rush order with a 6 day build time.
Thanks again for all your advice!
Rusty
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Congrats! Let us know how they sound!
What are you going to power them with?
Well, just to bring this thread & my search to a conclusion, I just ordered a set of 64 Audio A8's. https://www.64audio.com/product/1964-A8-Custom-In-Ear-Monitor They are specifically made for bass & drums & each bud has 4 low, 2 mid, & 2 high balanced armatures. I talked to some bass players who have them & love them. They say they have tons of bottom & crystal clear highs, so I'm sure I will love them! I sent my ear impressions off today so hopefully I'll have the buds in a coup,e of weeks. I paid for a rush order with a 6 day build time.
Thanks again for all your advice!
Rusty
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Thanks Edwin! I'm using these at my church & each person in the band has their own Aviom headphone mixer so we can do our own mixes. It has 16 channels with level & pan on each & a master volume & master bass & treble. I also bought a Tech 21 Para Drive DI preamp direct box with EQ so I can EQ my bass for my in ears. I used it last night & it worked great!
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Thanks Edwin! I'm using these at my church & each person in the band has their own Aviom headphone mixer so we can do our own mixes. It has 16 channels with level & pan on each & a master volume & master bass & treble. I also bought a Tech 21 Para Drive DI preamp direct box with EQ so I can EQ my bass for my in ears. I used it last night & it worked great!
Great news! It will change your life.
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My 64 Audio A8's shipped today! I'll have them on Friday.
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I got my 64 Audio A8 In Ears yesterday & I am blown away with them! They sound incredible! I have been using Senheiser 280 Pro headphones at my church & these A8's sound much better. The A8's actually have more bottom end than the headphones. The response is great too, I can hear the slightest changes on my filters & CVQs. They have a very warm & smooth tone with tons of bottom. I use a SanAmp active direct box with EQ & actually turned the bass control down from what I was using on my Senheiser headphones. I haven't used them with the band yet but playing along with music on my computer the bass cuts through great! Music sound incredible too. They sound better than my M Audio studio monitors. I have always been opposed to in ear monitors because I love the sound of my AccuGroove cabinets, but these 64 Audio buds have made a believer out of me!
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Anyone try bone conduction headphones for this purpose?
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They are the alpha and omega!
I'm not surprised that they outperform the Sennheisers and the M-Audio monitors. Neither of those are particularly high fidelity. Like all audio gear, they have their place, but welcome to the next level!
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Hey, nice report Rusty.
Congrats on your new EIGHT-WAY ears. I'm surprised they aren't tri-amped! Ha!
Seriously, this technology has made amazing strides since the first hearing-aid based units. Now you'll be so spoiled and no regular old speakers will sound correct again. Reality may not even have enough low-end!
Glad you're digging them. I may have to try a pair with more than 2 drivers next time. Although a guitar player pal of mine just got the FutureSonic single-driver models and loves them too. These are all great tools for listening to and playing music.
Jimmy J
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They are the alpha and omega!
I'm not surprised that they outperform the Sennheisers and the M-Audio monitors. Neither of those are particularly high fidelity. Like all audio gear, they have their place, but welcome to the next level!
They are the Alpha & Omega for me, they are the first & last pair of in ears I will ever have! I can't imagine needing anything better. The response to EQ changes is really incredible! I played with them last night to really fine tune my tone & they really respond to very slight changes.
When I was doing research for in ears I came accross a thread on Talk Bass that was dedicated to 64 Audio users, so I read all 49 pages of comments. A recurring theme kept coming up, people talked about how they heard parts listening to music with their 64 Audio buds that they had never heard before, so they have a way of bringing "hidden" things out into the open. Shortly after reading the reviews I came accross this verse in the bible "22 For whatever is hidden is meant to be disclosed, and whatever is concealed is meant to be brought out into the open." Mark 4:22 Then the following verse says "23 If anyone has ears to hear, let them hear.” So I thought both of these verses were perfect to describe the new buds & had 64 Audio put them on my buds.
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Hey, nice report Rusty.
Congrats on your new EIGHT-WAY ears. I'm surprised they aren't tri-amped! Ha!
Seriously, this technology has made amazing strides since the first hearing-aid based units. Now you'll be so spoiled and no regular old speakers will sound correct again. Reality may not even have enough low-end!
Glad you're digging them. I may have to try a pair with more than 2 drivers next time. Although a guitar player pal of mine just got the FutureSonic single-driver models and loves them too. These are all great tools for listening to and playing music.
Jimmy J
Thanks Jimmy! They do have a 3 way crossover inside! It boggles my mind that they can build something that high tech in such a tiny package!
I don't think these will ever replace the live sensation of playing through my AccuGroove El Whappo 4 way cabinet with a 15/12/6/dual tweeter combo, but they are good enough that I don't really miss the live sound now when I play at my church. When listening to music through them the kick drum literally sounds like I'm standing in front of a live PA with 18" subs!
I think 64 Audio has a booth a NAMM, so the next time you go you should definitely try them out! Of course the demo models are universal fit & won't have the low end isolation of the customs, but you can get a sense of what they sound like. Listening to music through them is like being in the studio with the band listening to the playback! The fidelity is incredible! I was skeptical at being able to get any kind of bottom end out of in ears, but these literally sound like they have 18" subs inside! And it's not muddy "rap" kind of low end, it is punchy like a kick drum with plenty of mids & highs.
To quote Ferris Bueller, "It is so choice. If you have the means, I highly recommend picking one up!"
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I emailed 64 Audio to tell them how much I love their product & they have posted my email on their website!
http://www.64audio.com/blog/2016/10/25/481/
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I ordered the Sensaphonics, since their design made sense to me, and there was a local audiologist on their preferred vendor list.
I ordered the 3-driver model (it's a 2-way design, with 2 bass drivers, AFAICT). Anyhoo, I'll report back here with results, if anyone is interested.
Rusty, your thread, so if you'd rather I report elsewhere, I can.
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Sensaphonics was on my list too, but I went with 64 Audio A8's & couldn't be happier! Please do report back here how you like your Sensaphonics, hopefully our data can help someone else make their choice when they are searching for the best IEM for themselves.
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Rusty, for some reason I was thinking of you at my gig last Saturday night, while enjoying my ears. Hope all is well!
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It's nice to be thought of Edwin, thanks! I played my Stanley tonight in church so I had to adjust the EQ on my SansAmp DI & loved the responsiveness of my 64 Audios! The Stanley had a nice bottom, but really cut through the mix when I did some high runs.
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Ok, so I got my Sensaphonics 3MAX in-ears today. Have not put the Alembic through them yet, but did listen to some music. They sound good, and have good bass response.
The best part is the fit. They are very comfortable! They are molded silicone, so they are soft, and mold well to the ear. I have had harder (fitted) earphones before, and these are much better for long term wear.
They passed with flying colors on my normal test & tune track: Acoustic Brew (Victor Wooten and Steve Bailey).
Also ran a bunch of Stanley tracks through it.
Anyhow, on early testing, I'm giving a thumbs up.
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Glad you like them! Let us know how they sound with your Alembic. How long did it take to build them?
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You guys are a bad influence on those of us susceptible to G.A.S.! I was recently invited to play in an ongoing jam where they use IEMs. I thought I'd just bring a pair of headphones. Then I started reading this thread. I'm not in a position to drop a grand on these, but I thought I'd dip my toe in and got a pair of Westone UM2s for a good price. They sound great listening to music.
Bill, tgo
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Sorry to be a bad influence Bill! Being a skinny string player, you don't need an 8 driver in ear like mine, but if you ever decide to upgrade your Westones, 64 Audio has models for guitar players starting at $399.
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Has any one else checked out the new Phil Jones Ear Box. It's a very small speaker you daisy chain into your rig and mount on a mic stand on the opposite side to your main rig. It's quite subtle, but very good.
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How do you IEM guys deal with the whole mono/stereo thing? From the research I've started to do, it seems most mixer AUX sends are in mono and IEMs are obviously stereo. Also, suggestions on a half-way decent but still economical headphone amp to use with IEMs would be appreciated. I just bought a Mackie DL1608 mixer and I'm intrigued by the idea of having everyone in the band able to do their own individual monitor mix.
Bill, tgo
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So not everyone in the band needs to use the same brand IEM?
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I don't believe so, Jonathan. It's the same as wedge monitors - everyone doesn't need the same brand monitor, you just need to get the impedence matched. And some can use wireless IEMs while others, (like drummer and keys), can simultaneously use wired IEMs. The Mackie mixer has six AUX outs, so this allows for six individual monitor mixes, whether through powered wedges or IEMs. Then each band member can control their own monitor/IEM mix with an iPad. At least that's how I understand it to work.
Bill, tgo
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Bill, you are correct about using different brands of in ears, the brand & type doesn't matter at all. I did research on 9 different brands before getting my 64 Audio buds & the impedance ranged from 14.2 - 46 ohms. Most headphone amps will be able to handle a wide range of imedance, it is not as critical with in ears as it is with matching speaker cabinets to the amp impedance.
The way my band dealt with having stereo capability was to assign each of us 2 Aux output channels from the board. The wireless transmitters had 2 channel inputs so you could do panning for different instruments. We had a Behringer X32 digital rack mount module & each of us did our own monitor mix with iPads or iPhones.
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Thanks for the info guys. My band's been considering going the IEM route. we're just beginning to scratch the surface.
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We're going to be limited to six AUX outs for four or five people, so assigning two per person won't work. I'm thinking maybe I could do a balanced mix on AUX #1, split that five ways and send that on one side to everyone, then each person gets their own AUX feed in the other side and can tweak that side any way they want. Anyone ever done it that way? Or is there a headphone amp that can split a mono signal and let you EQ each side separately? Any other ideas? This is all new to me.
Bill, tgo
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We use Aviom 16 channel individual monitor mixer/headphone amps at my church & they have the capability to pan left or right. I experimented with panning, but went back to having everything centered. For me it is easier to play having a balanced mix in my ears over a true stereo mix where my brain has to process different instruments in differrent ears. Stereo is great for listening to music, but not so much when playing it in a completely isolated in ear world.
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We use Aviom 16 channel individual monitor mixer/headphone amps at my church & they have the capability to pan left or right. I experimented with panning, but went back to having everything centered. For me it is easier to play having a balanced mix in my ears over a true stereo mix where my brain has to process different instruments in differrent ears. Stereo is great for listening to music, but not so much when playing it in a completely isolated in ear world.
Interesting! Mono creates masking problems and also makes it obvious that it's an in ear mix. If I have a some good panning (and place the instruments in their position relative to me) and judicious use of reverb, the ears can float away and it sounds again like I'm in the room.
Different strokes....
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If anyone has been considering getting IEMs from 64 Audio they are having a 20% off Black Friday sale.
This Black Friday weekend get 20% off all store wide products including Custom In-Ear Monitors & Universal-Fit Earphones.
At checkout use promo code: BF16
Restrictions apply: A2e and Chord Mojo not included in promotion. Promotion open to international customers. Universal-Fit products not included for China, Hong Kong, Taiwan, Japan customers due to distribution agreements. Contact your local distributor for more info.
Promotion runs from Friday, November 25, 12:01am - Sunday, November 27, 11:59pm PST.
Custom in-ear monitors require you to send in your ear impressions.
Sensaphonics usually holds their sale during the January NAMM show. Last year in addition to the price cut they were offering free ear impressions to NAMM show attendees. You did not need to attend the show to get the sale price on the IEMs but would have to pay a local audiologist to get the ear molds done.
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We use Aviom 16 channel individual monitor mixer/headphone amps at my church & they have the capability to pan left or right. I experimented with panning, but went back to having everything centered. For me it is easier to play having a balanced mix in my ears over a true stereo mix where my brain has to process different instruments in differrent ears. Stereo is great for listening to music, but not so much when playing it in a completely isolated in ear world.
Interesting! Mono creates masking problems and also makes it obvious that it's an in ear mix. If I have a some good panning (and place the instruments in their position relative to me) and judicious use of reverb, the ears can float away and it sounds again like I'm in the room.
Different strokes....
I'm not sure if we have reverb available on our monitor mix at church, but the main issue is that we have 2 different bass players using the same Aviom, so I have to reset it for what I like every time I play & we only have 30 minutes before the service starts to run through the music, so no time for extensive sound check. I go with a very basic mix just putting the instruments I need to hear in my buds.
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Edwin; I thought about your comment on mixing your in-ears so that each instrument is heard relative to where you are standing on the stage. So I'm wondering if it's disorienting if you've been standing relatively still and then suddenly turn around to face your amp; or maybe walk over to face the drummer?
Before in-ears, if a player turned to face his amp, the brain would automatically compensate so that the other players were still perceived to be in their original relative positions.
Another example; if you're cooking veggies in the wok, you can turn and walk over to the refrigerator, then turn and walk over to the dining table, then turn again and return to the stove, and the brain automatically maintains the fixed location of the sound of the veggies despite the movement of the ears relative to the stove.
So, when you're wearing in-ears that have a stereo mix with the other players in fixed positions relative to where you normally stand on the stage, if you turn and/or move from that location, does the brain try to compensate? Or does the guitar player sound like he's suddenly on the other end of the stage, and the singer is out in the audience?
:)
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Rusty, I believe the Aviom rig has a memory function, no? You should be able to save both yours and the other bass player's preferred mixes and recall them with the touch of 2 buttons. And if you change something during your set you simply save your changes as your new preset mix...
I am treated to a stereo mix when I'm using in-ears with JT. And I do generally pan the players as they appear onstage around me with the exception of hi-hat which I make sure is always audible in my left ear. Like wearing headphones, it only takes a second to get used to the "orientation" of the situation. And I love the fact that I can walk 10 feet in any direction and still be hearing everything I need to hear to keep track of my place in the song - and the groove. And if the guitar player standing stage-left of you plays something cool and you have him panned left, you will naturally turn your head in that direction to smile.
I grew up wearing phones so this in-ear setup works great for me. But if you are in a situation where you need to be more directly connected to the audience it can be kind of ... isolating. It's not for everybody.
Jimmy J
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Jeepers Dave, that seems like a lot of walking with wok going. . . . but as you inferred, the sound will tell you where the process is at. The morel* of all this? Listen to your veggies!
*pun intended, trying to be a fungi.
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Edwin; I thought about your comment on mixing your in-ears so that each instrument is heard relative to where you are standing on the stage. So I'm wondering if it's disorienting if you've been standing relatively still and then suddenly turn around to face your amp; or maybe walk over to face the drummer?
Before in-ears, if a player turned to face his amp, the brain would automatically compensate so that the other players were still perceived to be in their original relative positions.
Another example; if you're cooking veggies in the wok, you can turn and walk over to the refrigerator, then turn and walk over to the dining table, then turn again and return to the stove, and the brain automatically maintains the fixed location of the sound of the veggies despite the movement of the ears relative to the stove.
So, when you're wearing in-ears that have a stereo mix with the other players in fixed positions relative to where you normally stand on the stage, if you turn and/or move from that location, does the brain try to compensate? Or does the guitar player sound like he's suddenly on the other end of the stage, and the singer is out in the audience?
:)
It's generally not a problem as your ears and brain quickly gets used to what it sounds like. The only thing I've noticed that sometimes is a little odd is if I turn and face the drummer and the hi hat and ride as well as the toms are in conflict with what you see. But it's really not a problem.
However, there is now a plugin from Waves that is available that can make the adjustments for you automatically, in conjunction with this device: http://www.waves.com/hardware/nx-head-tracker
But the most important aspect of having things panned is to be able to heard things distinctly. It's not just valuable for being able to localize things in space, it also allows for rhythmic clarity. If you have rhythm guitar on one side and keys on the other, you get a much clearer sense of what both players are doing and where the real holes are to fit your notes. I often arrange my mix to satisfy these criteria rather than a strict layout of the stage. Rhythmic instruments panned fairly hard with melodic elements panned center along with bass and kick drum.
Last night at The Last Waltz Revisited show, we had a monitor engineer onboard who was really into getting in ear mixes going, so I got to use them for the first time in that context. It worked out great with rhythmic stuff panned, horn section less tightly panned, and melodic stuff in the middle. In a cavernous place like the Fillmore in Denver, it made a huge difference. I normally hate playing there because the acoustics are so terrible, but this made it even fun. Not quite as perfect as doing the mix myself, but very close.
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Rusty, I believe the Aviom rig has a memory function, no? You should be able to save both yours and the other bass player's preferred mixes and recall them with the touch of 2 buttons. And if you change something during your set you simply save your changes as your new preset mix...
I am treated to a stereo mix when I'm using in-ears with JT. And I do generally pan the players as they appear onstage around me with the exception of hi-hat which I make sure is always audible in my left ear. Like wearing headphones, it only takes a second to get used to the "orientation" of the situation. And I love the fact that I can walk 10 feet in any direction and still be hearing everything I need to hear to keep track of my place in the song - and the groove. And if the guitar player standing stage-left of you plays something cool and you have him panned left, you will naturally turn your head in that direction to smile.
I grew up wearing phones so this in-ear setup works great for me. But if you are in a situation where you need to be more directly connected to the audience it can be kind of ... isolating. It's not for everybody.
Jimmy J
Doing your own ears if you don't have a regular monitor mixer along with your own desk or being able to use identical digital desks, like the Avids where you can bring your mix from venue to venue, is great for having your mixes consistent from venue to venue. In Shakedown Street we have our Metric Halo rig, so everyone's mixes are 95% done before we hit the stage. After tweaking the preamp gains and few things here and there, soundcheck is done.
Isolation can be a problem, as well as communication with band members between songs. I'm trying to come up with a good system to turn the mics into intercoms, where they are routed to the in ears but not the PA with the touch of a footswitch or something similar. I've also taken to putting a couple of omni mics up at the front of the stage to be able to blend in audience and room sound. They are also useful for recordings (SDC pressure mics vs. omni patterns derived from dual capsule mics provide very smooth reproduction as well as killer low end).
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The only thing I've noticed that sometimes is a little odd is if I turn and face the drummer and the hi hat and ride as well as the toms are in conflict with what you see. But it's really not a problem.
However, there is now a plugin from Waves that is available that can make the adjustments for you automatically, in conjunction with this device: http://www.waves.com/hardware/nx-head-tracker (http://www.waves.com/hardware/nx-head-tracker)
Hah!
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Do you guys use an amp and cab as well as the IEM? One thing I love about playing bass is being able to feel the bass as well as hear it, I get such a charge out of that. Not sure I would want to give that up.
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Rusty, I believe the Aviom rig has a memory function, no? You should be able to save both yours and the other bass player's preferred mixes and recall them with the touch of 2 buttons. And if you change something during your set you simply save your changes as your new preset mix...
I am treated to a stereo mix when I'm using in-ears with JT. And I do generally pan the players as they appear onstage around me with the exception of hi-hat which I make sure is always audible in my left ear. Like wearing headphones, it only takes a second to get used to the "orientation" of the situation. And I love the fact that I can walk 10 feet in any direction and still be hearing everything I need to hear to keep track of my place in the song - and the groove. And if the guitar player standing stage-left of you plays something cool and you have him panned left, you will naturally turn your head in that direction to smile.
I grew up wearing phones so this in-ear setup works great for me. But if you are in a situation where you need to be more directly connected to the audience it can be kind of ... isolating. It's not for everybody.
Jimmy J
Jimmy, you are correct that the Aviom does have a memory function to save mixes, but I haven't used it because we change players in the band every service. Sometimes we have 2 or 3 guitar players & sometimes just 1. We can also have 1 or 2 keyboard players plus piano, so even if I save my mix chances are I will still have to adjust it for the next service. Somtimes the sound man changes the levels of the sends coming to the Aviom so we have to compensate for that. I tried to get everyone to start out with all the individual channel gains set low & the master high on the Aviom so they have plenty of headroom to boost individual instruments or vocals, but not everyone is doing that & if they need something louder in their ears they get the soundman to boost it, but that affects everyone.
I wish we had more time to get a good soundcheck & I could experiment with panning, but that probably won't happen.
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Do you guys use an amp and cab as well as the IEM? One thing I love about playing bass is being able to feel the bass as well as hear it, I get such a charge out of that. Not sure I would want to give that up.
Rob, I feel the same way you do which is why I was the lone holdout for getting in ears with my old band, but I can honestly say that with my 64 Audio A8's I can still feel the bass! It may not be blowing my pants legs like a live rig, but if your rig is loud enough to blow your pants legs your soundman & bandmates probably aren't very happy with you! LOL!
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Thanks, Rusty.
I play with three horn players, keyboard, guitar and drums. Every now and then I have to assert myself! :) I'll check out the IEM technology to see what it's like. Bass players, under cover alphas! :)
Rob
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Rob, I tried to play nice with my former band, I got an AcuuGroove "Wedgie" cabinet so that all my sound was directed back at me, but they still complained!
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Hey Rusty,
I know what you mean. I have a Wedgie and El Whappo, they complain until they get lost and look at you to show them where they are in the form!😊 The IEM stuff sounds interesting, and maybe better suited for certain situations. I'll check it out.
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I also have an El Whappo, & I can honestly say the 64 Audio A8's sound like I'm playing through my El Whappo! The bottom end is unbelievable & the responsiveness to the slightest tweak on my filters or CVQ controls is amazing! I'm still old school & prefer the live ambient sound of a nice backline, but I don't feel like I lost any fidelity with these buds. Like the AccuGroove gear, they are pricey, but also like AccuGroove, the sound is uncompromised, you get what you pay for.
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Do you guys use an amp and cab as well as the IEM? One thing I love about playing bass is being able to feel the bass as well as hear it, I get such a charge out of that. Not sure I would want to give that up.
Yes. Not only for the physical sensation but also to give the sound person something to mic up. I find that a JBL K140 complements the direct tone nicely.
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Glad you like them! Let us know how they sound with your Alembic. How long did it take to build them?
They only took 2-3 weeks to get built and shipped to my audiologist.
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Also, re: monitor mixes. The Behringer mixers (x32) with monitors (p16) are, frankly, about the best deal going for anything less than cost-no-object type installs.
Yes, Behringer. They bought a little company called Midas, and their stuff is actually great. Not recommending anything but their pro-audio stuff, though.
So if you're building a sound system, you should really look at the X32. Don't just take my word for it; check the reviews.
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Also, re: monitor mixes. The Behringer mixers (x32) with monitors (p16) are, frankly, about the best deal going for anything less than cost-no-object type installs.
Yes, Behringer. They bought a little company called Midas, and their stuff is actually great. Not recommending anything but their pro-audio stuff, though.
So if you're building a sound system, you should really look at the X32. Don't just take my word for it; check the reviews.
We used the X32 in my former band & loved it! We each did our own monitor mixes with iPads or iPhones & our soundman mixed with an iPad. We had the rackmount version so no snake to run, just a cat 5 cable from the mixer to our amp rack.
Did you ask them to ship to your audiologist or is that standard for Sensaphonics? My 64 Audios shipped directly to me.
I played my Jazz Bass a couple of weeks ago without using the Aviom mixer because our church was set up for our Christmas program on the stage so we couldn't use the Avioms, & my Jazz sounded great going straight into the DI without my SansAmp I usually use on my Alembic. I couldn't be happier with my IEMs.
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We just got a Presonus RM32 rackmixer: http://www.presonus.com/products/StudioLive-RM32AI
32 XLR inputs and 16 Auxes, works with most Apple and Windows devices and they're offering a hardware console that connects with a single Cat5 cable.
Each musician can create their own (Stereo with 2 linked aux channels) monitor mix, with all 32 channels available for their mix (64 channels if you have two RM32's)
Also comes with software to record all 32 (or 64) channels on separate tracks, does require a computer/laptop with Firewire connection though... (IIrc I think you can also use a Firewire to Thunderbolt adapter)
We'll install this in our practice room next week, I'll write up a report in a separate thread when we have all up and running.
Definitely worth checking out, we did one gig with it and I'm very pleased with the ease of use/versatility of the software.