Author Topic: In Ear Monitor Advice  (Read 6217 times)

rustyg61

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In Ear Monitor Advice
« on: September 07, 2016, 08:51:06 AM »
I recently started playing bass for my church & they use in ear monitors, but they ones they supply (Westone) make my bass sound like a tin can! Do any of you use in ears & if so, what kind do you use? I have done a ton of research lately, but all the companies say the same thing about their product, & the reviews are mostly from singers & monitor engineers. I want to hear from bass players who will vouch that their bass sounds great in their in ears. Obviously I want good bass response, but I don't want fat boomy bass. I prefer a tight articulate bass that cuts through the mix & I can hear each note I'm playing. We have a full orchestra & choir, but mostly what will be in my ears is bass, drums, guitars, piano, & lead vocals. We each have our own monitor mixer to set levels, so balance isn't a problem, but I'm used to great tone with my AccuGroove cabinets, so I want the best tone I can get with in ears too. I know the custom fit models are pricey, but I'm open to all options.

Thanks for your advice!

Rusty
Rusty
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2014 "Blue Orca" Series II Europa
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_blueorca.html

wayne

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2016, 10:29:14 AM »
Hey Rusty-

I've been using in-ears exclusively for a little more than 10 years now.  From my experience, to get good bass response in-ear you have to have isolation.  The in-ears have to seal out all other sound.  I've only been able to achieve that with custom fit.

For me, Sensaphonics is the best out there.   They are the only one (that I know of) using silicone for the entire shell.  It isolates better and is the most comfortable.  It's a dual driver, but I couldn't ask for any better, cleaner, flat response.

https://store.sensaphonics.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=2X%2DS

I also use Gorilla Ears.  They are an acrylic shell. Are well made and a bit more reasonable in cost.  I have a triple driver from them that pretty well matches the Sensaphonics in response.  They don't isolate quite as well, but are much easier to get in and out.

http://shop.gorillaears.com/collections/gx-series/products/gx-3?variant=286945604

Good luck on the search!

C-Ya................wayne
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rustyg61

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #2 on: September 07, 2016, 10:51:42 AM »
Thanks so much Wayne! I'll look into both of those!

Rusty
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2014 "Blue Orca" Series II Europa
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rustyg61

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #3 on: September 07, 2016, 10:58:14 AM »
Wayne, are yours custom fit or universal fit?
Rusty
2011 SCSD
2014 "Blue Orca" Series II Europa
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_blueorca.html

keith_h

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #4 on: September 07, 2016, 02:21:38 PM »
Universal aren't too bad for vocals but tend to let in too much outside sound for most musicians. For both in ears and earplugs I used custom fit gear set up by an audiologist. When I had mine fit I also had a hearing test performed as it was covered under my insurance. Surprisingly they also picked up all of the cost of the earplugs due to me having a sufficient enough hearing loss in my left ear to warrant taking action. YMMV.

StephenR

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #5 on: September 07, 2016, 03:02:56 PM »
Hey Keith

Did your insurance cover the cost of in-ear monitors or just earplugs?

keith_h

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #6 on: September 07, 2016, 03:56:01 PM »
Hey Keith

Did your insurance cover the cost of in-ear monitors or just earplugs?

Just the earplugs but we were able to have the molds returned so they could be reused which saved me some money.

StephenR

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #7 on: September 07, 2016, 04:11:21 PM »
Cool... good info, Thanks!

wayne

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #8 on: September 07, 2016, 07:12:15 PM »
Custom.  As Keith said, that's the only way to get the isolation needed to have good bass response.

I also have custom fit musician's earplugs from Sensaphonics with interchangeable filters to reduce the level by either 9, 15, or 25 dB.  The filters are by Etymotic Research and give a flat response.  It's like turning the volume down, no stuffing cotton in your ears.  I also have a set of solid plugs that I use in extremely loud environments where tone quality is not an issue (approximatley 30 dB reduction).

Sensaphonics will make several items from a single set of impressions on the same order.  I'm sure other makers will too.

+1 on having a hearing test done while you're at the audiologist for the impressions.

C-Ya..........wayne
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edwin

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #9 on: September 07, 2016, 09:09:23 PM »
I've been through this whole deal and spent way too much money trying to find the best system. For huge deep bass, nothing beats the Future Sonics MG7 Pro. They are useless as far as general listening goes, as the frequency response is too lumpy and they are too sensitive for iPhones, etc., but for onstage bass playing, nothing beats them. IF you get a good fit. That's where I had problems. I went back and forth too many times and what it came down to is that there only seems to be one guy in Colorado who can really make the impressions properly (George Cire) and I didn't know about him when I had them made. If I were wealthy, I'd get him to make some new impressions and jump on these in a heartbeat. The only other time I've heard that kind of low end depth was playing through Mike Gordon's Meyer rig. The MG7s don't give you the thump of a double 18 in terms of hitting you in the chest, but they give you everything else about deep, deep, bass. And it's not one note bass, every note is clear, distinct, and articulate. Some IEMs are simply hyped and it just sounds bloated rather than truly deep.

I also have the MG5 Pros and they are excellent. Still really good bass, but very balanced and listening to music is a joy with these things. Future Sonics are all single dynamic driver IEMs, so their high end is very smooth and the low end blows away all the balanced armature IEMs, although some come close.

Future Sonics also make a universal IEM, but the problem with them is too much bass. And the seal isn't nearly what the custom fit versions are. You can, however, get sleeves that improve the situation. The rest of my band uses them and likes them a lot, but they've never experienced the custom molded IEMs.

So, after all that hoopla and raving about Future Sonics, what do I use every day? Sensaphonics. Two reasons: 1) George Cire did the impressions (I found out about him from the Sensaphonics website, no matter who you buy from, I recommend using their recommended audiologists) and 2) they are not a hard mold but a soft silicone that has a lot more give. So the seal is much, much better. I bet that if George did the impressions for my Future Sonics, my search would have ended there, but I'm glad I threw down for the Sensaphonics. For on stage use, they are hard to beat. I have the basic dual driver model. They do suffer a little bit from being a balanced armature design, so they aren't as hifi or as deep as the MG5 pros, but they are quite good. For that reason, I don't use them for listening for pleasure or mixing.

I would be remiss if I didn't mention Etymotic  ER4XRs. They are a brand new model, so I haven't tried them, but I am very tempted to upgrade my plain old ER4 to them. The ER4s, despite being a balanced armature design, have some of the best frequency response of any IEM and certainly give a bunch of high end headphones a run for their money. Where the standard ER4s fall down is in big bass. They have low end, but it's not that huge. The ER4XR is supposed to be even better all around, but especially improved in the low end. They are also the second best seal to Sensaphonics, despite not being a custom molded IEM. I was skeptical about these for a long time, but now that I have a pair, I have to say that I love them. They sound fantastic, seal well, and are not that expensive, compared to a custom molded IEM. I would agree with the above that custom is the only way to get good isolation with the exception of the Etymotics. The isolation is that good.

One of the big issues for me is tinnitus. I have a far amount of it, so I cannot play without ear plugs, but even better is IEMs. I need isolation if I am going to be able to gig. I even lug around a splitter and a computer driven digital mixer to do my own mixes, except at festivals where I don't have time to set it up. It makes all the difference in the world to have great sound and not have my ears blown out.

And Wayne is right as far as other products from Sensaphonics. I have two pairs of their earplugs and have thought about getting a set of sleeves for the Etymotics. They do great work.

They typically do a holiday sale around Christmas time that is well worth jumping on. It can save you $100 or so for the lower priced IEMs and even more as you go up.

One last thing about Sensaphonics. If you have the scratch, they have a system where there are mics built into the IEMs and the belt pack can mix the mics back into the send from the monitor mixer. I haven't tried them, but it seems very cool. If you have $2k to drop on the system. Friends of my mine swear by them and will often just use the mics. You can also utilize a send to record what you are hearing. It's worth scoping out their website to see all the cool things they do.

JimmyJ

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #10 on: September 09, 2016, 12:52:32 AM »
Hey Rusty,

How about a good pair of headphones?  Or maybe a good stereo equalizer could give those Westones some ... TONE?


The next step might be to try a pair of Shure generic fit units.  Check their SE215, SE315 or SE425, depending on how much you want to invest in the experiment.

The problem with custom fit products is that you can't exactly test and compare different manufacturers without spending a fortune. 

I'm currently using the cheapest model of Jerry Harvey's in-ears monitors "JH5". jhaudio.com  Jerry was one of the founders of Ultimate Ears and then spun off his own company few years ago.  These are 2-way units with one low-frequency and one high-frequency driver for each ear.  I think they're plenty loud and sound quite musical.  Beyond the gig I also use them for anything I need to listen to on the road.  They're great on airplanes too.

You can now get IEMs with up to EIGHT drivers in each ear - though how they do that is beyond me.  In my opinion, trying to balance the sound across 8 drivers and presumably several crossovers would result in a "lumpy" frequency response - as Edwin mentioned above. 

If you don't mind the isolation of in-ears they can be pretty beneficial.  It allows you to have the mix you want while keeping the overall level low.  Plus with no amp onstage you prevent the bass from leaking into every open mic and that makes for a much cleaner sound at FOH.

Good luck with your quest!
Jimmy J

gearhed289

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #11 on: September 09, 2016, 07:23:42 AM »
My experience - when I use in-ears, I use Shure se425 ears with a PSM900 system. I use the stock, black foam, no custom fit. I like a little bleed, and don't like total isolation. Up until I started using in-ears, I was adamant about miking the bass amp to get the best tone. But once I tried ears with DI, I realized just how great the tone could be without miking the amp. My tone is pretty raw Entwistle/Squier/Lee, with a little more punch and low end. If you like a more refined hi-fi sound, my experiences may not apply.

rustyg61

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #12 on: September 10, 2016, 10:56:54 AM »
Thanks so much for all of your advice! I still haven't decided on which ones to get, but it will be a custom fit IEM. I have located an audiologist in Houston who is recommended by some of the brands, so I will use her for my molds. I recently sold some gear so I have around $1200 to spend, so I want to get top quality IEM's. My live rig is a F-2B & SF-2 going into an AccuGroove El Whappo or Wedgie cabinet, so I'm spoiled with amazing tone & want to get the best IEM I can. I know none of them will replicate what I'm used to hearing, but hopefully I can come close.

Here are the ones I'm currently considering, if you know anything about these particular models or brands, please let me know.

   Brand           Model       Price      Drivers    Freq Resp.  Sensitivity  Bores  Impedance   Isolation
64 Audio            A8        $1400   4L 2M 2H   10Hz-20K      117dB        4      18 Ohms     -26dB
Ultimate Ears  UE11 Pro  $1150   2L 1M 1H   5Hz-22K        119dB        2      18 Ohms     -26dB
Alien Ears          G16        $800   4L 2M 2H   10Hz-20K      132dB        4      18 Ohms     -30dB
JH Audio         JH16 Pro  $1225   4L 2M 2H   10Hz-20K      118dB        3      18 Ohms     -26dB
Sensaphonics   3Max      $1050      2L 1H     20Hz-20K       114dB        1     14.2 Ohms   -37dB
Gorilla             GX-4b      $799    2L 1M 1H   20Hz-20K      120dB         ?     20 Ohms     -28dB
Future Sonics   MG6 Pro   $900   (1) 13mm   18Hz-20K      114dB        1     32 Ohms      -20dB
Clear Tune       CT-6E     $1000   2L 2M 2H    20Hz-20K      115dB        3     23 Ohms      -26dB
Westone          ES 60      $1300   2L 2M 2H    8Hz-20K       118dB        2     46 Ohms      -25dB

Jimmy, I'm currently wearing my Senheiser 280 Pro headphones when I play in church, but they are too big & bulky & look bad when everyone else is wearing in ears. So I want to get some high quality in ears that will do justice to my Alembics & also be able to clearly hear the drums, guitars, piano, & vocals. We have a full orchestra but I won't be putting them in my mix, less is better for me to hear what I'm playing. So I do need good isolation so the strings & brass don't bleed in too much. How does your bass sound in your in ears compared to how it sounds on your recordings? Your tone is the benchmark I use when I set up my rig, so if you can get your trademark tone using the JH buds, that would be a huge endoesement for them!
Rusty
2011 SCSD
2014 "Blue Orca" Series II Europa
http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_blueorca.html

JimmyJ

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #13 on: September 11, 2016, 10:59:38 AM »
Rusty,


Thanks for the kind words about my tone.  You may be more of an audiophile than I am in this case but I'm sure all of the models you've listed sound great...  I'd guess that there are only one or two companies on the planet which actually make the drivers in the devices sold by these 9 companies.  Here's something interesting I just came across, fyi:
https://brianli.com/in-ear-monitors-balanced-armature-drivers-vs-dynamic-drivers/


Fit is really important and can vary based on the shape of your ear canal...  I tried some soft silicon molds once but I could hear my bones - like a thud if I stomped my foot.  Quite disconcerting!  I actually liked the generic Shures with the foam inserts.  Basically like a foam earplug with sound being fed in.  They were comfy and had a good seal but a bit awkward for everyday use.


So back to your question, I'm a tone guy when it comes to producing sound but maybe less so when it comes to reproducing it.  Ha!  I've worked in studios most of my life and gotten used to making do with whatever the headphones might sound like.  As long as I can hear what I need to hear to play with the band I can deal with it.  In fact, if the studio's headphone mix is TOO good it can be a let down to go in and hear it in the control room.  Better to have a weak phone mix but be pleased with the sound in the booth than the other way around.


This may also apply with my current live operation.  I KNOW that the sound of my bass in the PA is the way I like it, even if what I'm hearing onstage may not be the most hi-fi experience.  My simple 2-way (balanced armature) JH5s serve the purpose for me.  They allow me to hear what I need to hear, including relatively good low-end - at a fairly low overall volume.


They're also comfortable and I can wear them all day if need be.  But if I smile real big they lose their seal and I need to nudge them back in.  (I'm working on some kind of facial move that would pop them completely out.  It would be a great party trick!)


So I'm used to these, they feel good and sound fine for what I need.  But again, they probably are not the most hi-fi IEMs available so I won't "endorse" the product.  These just work for me.


One more thing to think about is a good amp to drive them.  Avoid using a wireless pack if you possibly can as that is one more considerably heavy step on the sound.  I'm using an amp made by a company called Headroom which has a "delayed cross-feed" thing to simulate listening to speakers, plus some minimal eq.  There are some great HiFi amps from Grace, Meridian, etc., if you want to go completely nuts!


Happy searching!
Jimmy J

edwardofhuncote

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Re: In Ear Monitor Advice
« Reply #14 on: September 11, 2016, 11:25:11 AM »
...So back to your question, I'm a tone guy when it comes to producing sound but maybe less so when it comes to reproducing it.  Ha!  I've worked in studios most of my life and gotten used to making do with whatever the headphones might sound like.  As long as I can hear what I need to hear to play with the band I can deal with it.  In fact, if the studio's headphone mix is TOO good it can be a let down to go in and hear it in the control room.  Better to have a weak phone mix but be pleased with the sound in the booth than the other way around.

I've just been lurking on Rusty's thread here, mostly because I haven't any experience at all with IEM's, and therefore nothing to add. It was strictly for educational purposes, in case I ever did. But then this snippet of Jimmy J's reply just tied my brain in a square knot. Pretty much equates to "Use The Force, Luke..." ;D

I need to be more disciplined, especially in the studio, but onstage too. Trust the bass, trust the engineer. Going to go write that 100 times now...

Great thread guys.  8)