Author Topic: Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?  (Read 481 times)

keavin

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #15 on: March 30, 2004, 09:52:41 AM »
that also explains why alembics started with the big bodys,the bigger the body the bigger the sound, (bottom)&(overall tone) and you can also hear the bass breath through the sound,ie,you can also actually feel  a series bass more than you would a solid body in a 'live setting' ,(just like you thought of the uprite).  

bob

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #16 on: March 31, 2004, 07:21:46 PM »
Keavin,
 
While I truly appreciate your enthusiasm, I have some problems with your physics - not all of them, just some. And before I say anything more, I should note that I have a (solid) Rogue and only once, very briefly, played a Series bass.
 
Nevertheless, I'll just go ahead and state a few things as 'fact' and let others contradict me :-)
 
This is way too long, so feel free to drop out along the way. The main point I wish to make is that while there are many good reasons to buy a Series bass, the fact that it has a chambered body is not one of them (aside from keeping the weight down).
 
Point 1: Series basses sound different than other Alembics primarily because they use a different pickup design (single coil) and somewhat different electronics.
 
Point 2: In response to the original question, my personal sense is that for a solid body electric bass, mass and stiffness are more important than most other things. Different woods will certainly affect the tone, but on average if you just look at weight/mass/density, that will generally give you a good characterization of the overall contribution of the body to the tone.
 
For a deeper (more fundamental) tone, bigger is generally better, though I would first spend my weight and dollar allowances on stiffening the neck, because that will make much more difference than the body.
 
I should add that I personally believe there are some special cases here, such as the high oil content of coco bolo, possibly things like the long grain structure of vermillion, and so forth. But to put it in crude terms, I'd rather have an electric bass body made out of a heavy lucite or plexiglass (maybe Corian!) than balsa. And I would prefer that neither be hollow.
 
My sense is that a larger, more massive body will mostly allow the strings to continue to vibrate longer and in more interesting (harmonically useful) ways. The simple theory here is that the energy remains in the strings, rather than being dissipated into the body.
 
Hollowing out the body, and thereby reducing its mass, would actually be counter to that purpose.
 
This is a complicated issue. We had some inconclusive discussions on this about a year ago relating to the 'hippie sandwich' constructions, and one of the questions there was: assuming the energy from the strings somehow bleeds out into the body, how exactly does it make its way back into the strings - because that's the only way it can possibly get amplified?
 
My current thinking is that virtually none of the energy makes it way from the body back into the strings, and therefore the more important question is what frequencies get lost more easily in the first place.
 
Point 3: there is simply no significant relationship between the construction of a Les Paul and a Series bass. A hollow or semi-hollow guitar body is constructed of fairly thin and flexible plates, with a sufficiently large air cavity that the air vibrations can interact with the plates, and in turn somehow modify the behavior of the strings.
 
This is a bit problematic... but more on that in point 4. For the moment, I would note that while a Series body may be partially hollow, the air cavity is too small, and the surrounding wood too thick, for the chamber to behave in a resonate manner that would reflect back into the strings.
 
Yes, you might actually feel it breathe (vibrate) a bit more, and that might inspire your playing and so forth, but you will have a very hard time convincing me that these small chambers actually affect the sound.
 
Point 4: an upright bass is a completely different animal, even more so than the Les Paul.
 
Assume you are playing an upright bass, without amplification, in a modestly sized room; or playing an electric bass in the same room with a small amplifier.
 
In both cases, anyone more than a few feet away from the instrument is hearing virtually zero sound from the vibrating strings themselves. Maybe some string/finger noise, like plucking attack or fret noise or fingerboard slap, but not the main tone.
 
With the upright, the strings vibrate, they move the bridge, which is designed to rock sideways and thereby transfer the vibrations to the top plate, which in turn excites an extremely complicated and interacting set of air and wood resonances between the cavity and the front/back body plates. This is what moves the air in the room so that you can hear the sound - air molecules pumping in and out of the sound holes, as well as being shoved around by the vibrations of the wood plates (a large surface on an upright). But you get remarkably little air movement from the vibrations of the strings themselves.
 
With the electric, it's completely different. Essentially all of the sound is coming from string movement, 'picked up' by magnets/coils and then amplified and sent out through a speaker.
 
Yes, the sound will be different depending on the woods, construction, and of course the electronics. But fundamentally, you are relying on an electro-magnetic sensing of the vibration of the strings, plus subsequent amplification and driving of a speaker cone, rather than a physical movement of air and wood surfaces, to produce the sound. The string itself doesn't move enough air, nor does the trivial vibration of the solid - or chambered - body.
 
So with an electric, what really matters is what you can do to modify the vibration of the strings, or sense those vibrations differently.
 
Point 5: I don't believe anyone at Alembic is going to claim that they hollow out part of the Series bodies so that it will sound more like an acoustic, or so that it will otherwise sound better than solid models. They need more room for electronics, want to reduce the weight, and maybe even some of it is just because that's how they've been building them for years.
 
It might be useful to read the description of the Classico (Alembic's electric upright). As you'll see, it has a hollow core to reduce weight, but everything about the design is focused on keeping the energy in the strings - not on trying to take advantage of a resonant air chamber.
 
 
I'm probably being too picky here, but there is no reason not to put Series electronics in some other solid body shape (as many people have) - you'll still get the Series sound. It is not going to sound less full just because you don't have a couple of small air pockets in the body.
 
-Bob

keavin

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #17 on: March 31, 2004, 07:59:56 PM »
very well said watson!!!   (sherlock holmes)

jeff

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #18 on: April 01, 2004, 09:31:59 AM »
Bob,
 
I am constantly amazed at the wealth of knowledge exhibited by Alembicians and your explanation of the solid vs. chambered body sound certainly enhances my opinion.  I would be very interested in hearing from Mica, or anyone else at Alembic or in this club, if they agree with your observations.  The outcome of this discussion may influence my choice of body style for my next bass.
 
Jeff

bracheen

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #19 on: April 01, 2004, 09:52:21 AM »
Bob, very enlightening post.  I do have one question for you about point 2.  Not an argument or contridiction but an honest to goodness question.
Point 2: In response to the original question, my personal sense is that for a solid body electric bass, mass and stiffness are more important than most other things. Different woods will certainly affect the tone, but on average if you just look at weight/mass/density, that will generally give you a good characterization of the overall contribution of the body to the tone.
My question, I have a Warwick Thumb bolt-on that is much smaller than my Epic.  The Epic is of course Mahagony with a Zebrawood top.  The Thumb is Ovangkol.  The weights are similar and both are fretted.  The smaller Thumb has a much deeper tone than the Epic. If size and weight are the main factors what would explain this difference in tone between the two?
 
Sam

bassman10096

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #20 on: April 01, 2004, 10:31:39 AM »
Bob:  Really careful and logical analysis.  I agree with each of your points based on my own reasoning.  I think the chambered body's use is strictly a matter of weight control.  I don't have enough direct experience to tell whether a chambered body produces less sustain than a solid one, if the neck stiffness is the same for each. I guess my instinct tells me that a generally larger body with greater weight contributes more stability and resistance to energy loss than a smaller, and or lighter one.  
 
On the other hand, I've definitely observed the differences in sustain between a neck of maple with walnut pinstripes and one with purpleheart laminates, though.  
 
One other point on the chambered body - Alembic can also produce Signature Deluxe models on a chambered basis.  I don't know whether the hollows are identical to those made to accomodate Series electronics, but any difference would seem to matter to the bass's weight only.
 
Bill
 

effclef

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #21 on: April 01, 2004, 11:11:18 AM »
Chambered Series - well, imagine an acoustic guitar where the top, sides, and back, are 1/4 thick! Think that will sound good? The top of an acoustic needs to vibrate to send air movement out the sound hole.  
 
So my guess is that a Series bass with a 1/4 top and back over the chambers would mean that the chambers don't add as much to the response of the bass as much as the neck, especially with ebony or purpleheart.
 
Only Ron knows for sure ;-) because I bet he has tried measurements on both!
 
EffClef
 
PS on Signature models - I have seen pictures of them with signatures on the front headstock laminate, and I believe I have seen ones on the back. Regardless - are these actual signed veeners which are then mounted on the bass? (I can just imagine Stanley taking a Sharpie at his kitchen table and signing dozens of wood pieces.)

811952

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #22 on: April 01, 2004, 12:08:50 PM »
I always thought the chambered body was to accomodate the electronics, which, in the older instruments, pretty much fill up the chambers...
John

bob

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #23 on: April 01, 2004, 12:57:59 PM »
Sam, I think I can weasel my way out of your question (about four posts earlier) pretty simply, with the phrase 'all other things being equal'.
 
Suppose you had either Alembic or Warwick make you two identical basses - electronics, bridge/nut, body size/shape, all other woods and construction techniques - the only difference being the body wood. I'm not familiar with Ovangkol, but suppose one body was all ash and the other all ebony. The ebony one is going to keep more energy in the strings, which will probably be particularly noticeable in the lower frequencies.
 
Forget the brand names and marketing lingo for a moment, and think about what happens. A wave (vibration) moves along the length of the string and runs into the bridge. If the bridge and whatever it was attached to were infinitely massive, then the wave would have no choice but to turn around and go back along the string.
 
In the case of many Alembics, the wave hits the bridge and then it has to first try to move a half pound piece of brass (the sustain, or bridge block), and then it has to get that chunk of brass to try to move the rest of the body. Make the body more massive, and the wave is fighting a losing battle.
 
Of course, the other end of the string is anchored way out at the end of along thin piece of wood, and the wave has a better chance of messing with that. So some of the energy is transferred to the neck, and some of that will also make its way back into the body (bypassing the bridge block this time). So again, make it harder for the neck to move the body, make it harder for the string to move the neck, and more of the wave gets reflected back along the string - and therefore passes over the pickup one more time.
 
But I digress (yet again...). Suppose you take these two identical instruments, and change only the bodies to get the total weight the same. You could make a really huge ash body, for instance, but I'm pretty sure the ebony one will still sound better in some ways - deeper, fuller, more complex, better sustain. In fact, my guess is that you could leave the ash body as it was, and drill a bunch of holes in the ebony body to lighten it up, and it will still retain some of those characteristics.
 
I don't claim to understand how far you can push this, so that's why I kind of fudged things by referring to weight/mass/density, and I probably should have thrown in rigidity or something as well - I'm sure there are some differences between a large but very thin body, vs. a small thick one, for instance, though perhaps not within the range of size/shape that would be useful for a bass.
 
Having said all this, I still have no doubt that different woods make a very important contribution in shaping the overall tone. But as a general rule for getting deep, rich, sustained bass, first make the neck really stiff (oh, and maybe long) and then anchor it in a nice heavy body. Just ask Rami, he's had this figured out for years.
 
-Bob
 
PS: John, I had the same thought - originally the electronics took up a lot more space, but just because they're smaller now is not a compelling reason to change a perfectly good construction technique, that also keeps the weight reasonable.

keavin

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Series I - does a bigger bass mean a bigger bottom?
« Reply #24 on: April 01, 2004, 01:02:36 PM »
after playing & recording with a large body s/II for 25yrs,there is no doubt theres a diffrence in sound (however wood is always a tonal factor here),...so my conclusion is that its both,the sound is very much so affected by the chambered body,there is a pure 'sonic logic'behind this design,you can hear it in all of stanleys bass solos,there is purely a hollow alembic sound   (especially when the filters are, or have been tweeked).