Author Topic: F-1X Output  (Read 345 times)

adriaan

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F-1X Output
« Reply #15 on: March 22, 2007, 10:52:20 AM »
The idea is that you run one output to the front-of-house system, which will be out-of-phase with the output that you run to the on-stage rig. This way you should have a cleaner low-end response both on-stage and in front for the audience.

crgaston

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F-1X Output
« Reply #16 on: March 22, 2007, 11:00:27 AM »
Hi David,
Checking the specs on the QSC website, it loks like the voltage gain on your RMX is about 25% less than on your PLX.  This may have something to do with your issue.  Also, depending on how your bass is eq'ed, there may not be much power going to the high-pass output, anyway (as Raymond pointed out above).  Both these factors could be contributing to the problem.
 
Try this...
Using one speaker and one amp, play for a minute or so through the full range out to get a feel for the volume.  Then disconnect it and use the low-pass out, with the HF level set at 0 (12 o'clock) and your Crossover frequency set as high as it will go, or fully clockwise.  Unless the extreme high end is a major part of your sound, the levels should be pretty even between the two jacks.  If there is still the drastic dropoff, there is a problem.
 
Regarding phase, technically it is the low-pass that is out of phase, but effectively it doesn't matter which banana plug you flip since there are only two signals.  
 
Hope this helps,
Charles

0vid

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F-1X Output
« Reply #17 on: March 22, 2007, 11:33:20 AM »
>>
 
This sounds like your unit has a defective crossover section.

David Houck

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« Reply #18 on: March 22, 2007, 02:55:54 PM »
For more on the subject of phase shift, go here.

dfung60

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« Reply #19 on: March 24, 2007, 01:09:29 AM »
I think your gear may be working just fine.  The problem is that biamping and using the crossover is just not producing a good result for you.
 
The first problem is that a biamp system is a good solution for full range sound sources (recorded music, keyboards, drums).  Your bass is, uh, a BASS instrument and doesn't have so much high end output that the upper split has that much to do.  The low E fundamental is 40Hz; an octave higher is 80Hz, the fundamental of the highest E you can play on the G string is 160Hz.  The first (octave harmonic) of that high E is 320Hz and even the third harmonic (the next octave is still only 640Hz.  With the crossover frequency dropped down to the lowest range (70Hz) you'll find that only higher notes will be routed to the 2x10 cab and, simultaneously, you'll be robbing the 1x15 cab of most harmonics and many fundamentals.  By the time the crossover freq is up to 12 o'clock, pretty much all the signal will be sent to your 1x15 and your 2x10 won't have much to do.  This is not to say that there's not much bass business above 1000Hz, but if you're not slapping or playing with an extremely bright sound, there probably won't be that much going on.
 
While the crossover is splitting things up possibly in a somewhat non-useful fashion, you're also suffering an enormous power loss because of the biamping.  I don't know which amp you're using, but what's happening here is that the low-end channel is being fully used but is only driving one speaker now instead of two.  The high-end amp is mostly not doing anything because of lack of program material, so you've effectively lost that amp power as well as getting no acoustic output from the 2x10 cabinet.  As opposed feeding both channels with a full range signal, you've lost 50% of the amplifier power and 50% of the speaker area of your rig - that's only 6dB, but a very significant loss.
 
On top of that, in your original setup, you were running the power amp in bridge mode.  When you couple the amps up in this way, it acts as though the impedance of the speakers was reduced by half.  Numerically, that is a 2x increase in amplifier watts (again, another 3dB).  And in practice, it's probably even higher than that since you were probably running the two cabinets in parallel which would again double the amplifier power!
 
All those splits are costing you a lot of perceived output and that's why things sound lackluster.
 
Biamping is really useful when you have the right circumstance.  If you have a full-range (bass to high treble) signal and you want it to be really loud then this is a good application.  The problem with amplifying a piano, synth, or even voice is that the best speaker for high frequencies is a small one which can vibrate faster and the best speaker for low frequencies is a large one that can move a lot of air.  But the big bass speaker is too massive to reproduce highs and the tweeter will melt down if you try to drive it with high current bass signals.  So, you split the signal with a crossover and let each speaker do it's own specialized job.  For a bass rig, there's not that much for the high end channel to do, and a 2x10 cabinet is too big to reproduce the highs well anyway (2x10 might be a gutless low end cabinet for us bassists, but it's bigger than most woofer in most full range systems).
 
So, if I were you, I'd switch back to your original setup - bridge the power amp, feed it with the full range output from your F1-X, and run both speakers full range and parallel.  You'll probably be a lot happier.  If you want a little more flexibility, then run the amp unbridged, feed both channels with the full range output, and you'll be able to use the gain controls on the amp to control the balance of the two cabinets independently.
 
You can verify that the crossover is working properly, but feeding it with a full range signal (e.g., your iPod or the like).  You'll hear that the 2x10 is plenty busy then, although you may not like the sound of your rig vs. something with flat response.
 
The crossover (whether passive or active) doesn't just protect the tweeters from getting cooked.  If the tweeter could take the power and you fed both speakers with full-range signal, you'd find that there would be certain ranges where both speakers were actively able to reproduce the sound.  The sound in those overlap areas will be terrible, because the time response of the speakers won't match (the woofers mass will blur transients for instance).  When you have time shifts and blurring like this, you get phase cancellation which can make things thin and/or honky sounding.  If this is in the midrange, where human hearing is the most sensitive, it will make for annoying sound.  The crossovers divide up the spectrum and reduce these problems, and a properly designed system is tweaked for good results in the overlap areas.  Your F1-X crossover doesn't have the adjustability to make these sorts of compensations.  In fact, these sorts of adjustments are exactly what all those weird trimpots are tweaking in Ron's ELF Integrator.
 
I hope this helps.  Having all the fun/advanced stuff is cool, but often the simple setup will yield the best sound.
 
David Fung

jazzyvee

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F-1X Output
« Reply #20 on: March 24, 2007, 12:01:06 PM »
I think you guys are right, I tried the full range out into the 2x10 and the low pass into the 1x15 and even with the out of phase situation talked about, the output is much fuller in sound than with the high out into the 2x10.
 
So I'm gonna do some more experimenting to see how to get the beef coming out of both speakers.
Cheers
 
Pity I didn't know this before I bought the whole setup as I may have not bothered. Cest La vie.
 
Jazzyvee
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http://www.alembic.com/info/fc_ktwins.html

palembic

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« Reply #21 on: May 05, 2007, 08:25:46 AM »
Hi Friends
 
As you probably read at another place I got Bonnie back but Edwin (who brought her back) located the problem in a bad working speaker. It seemed that I blew the 15 of my Glock, the QSC was too powerfull!
SO it will be replaced by a Beyma 700W by 8ohm Neodymium speaker and an extra bassreflection hole.
Edwin also gave me the advice to run a full range signal from tha back of the F1-X in Bi-amp to the 2x10 inch with horn. And feed the Beyma only with freq below 100 (so cross point at 100HZ).
 
I will keep in mind about this opposite-phase thing: so IFF I get things right the FULL RANGE out at the back of the F1-X is in opposite phase as the channel of the low-freq when running in Bi-amp????
The repair-dude suggested a kind of small box wherein polarity is changed to put between the FULLRANGE outpunt and the input of the QSC-channel!
 
Some advice to keep in mind!
 
Paul TBO
 
Yep ...i KNOW to watch out for blowing the 2x10 too!!!

dfung60

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« Reply #22 on: May 06, 2007, 10:49:41 PM »
In many electronics, the phase is reversed each time you go through another amplification stage.  I don't know if this is the case in the F1-X, but seems like it is probably so.
 
But it doesn't really matter!  There's no standard for phase in speaker cabinets, so if you're mixing manufacturers cabinets, you only have a 50% chance that the cabinets will be in phase.  You have to hook 'em up and listen to the results to determine whether the phase relationship is right or not.  
 
You don't really need an external box to reverse phase.  If you need to reverse phase in the 1x15 cab, you can probably open up the cabinet and reverse the leads on the speaker.  If the lugs are different sizes, it might be easier to reverse the connections on the speaker input jack.  You can also work your way back in the signal chain to any point that's convenient and reverse the signal leads on one side.  It can be done in a cable, or inside your amp, but I would recommend doing it inside the speaker cabinet as it will keep things from getting confusing in the future if you change equipment.
 
The phase of a speaker it determined by the wiring of the cabinet, the direction in which the voice coil of the speaker is wired and how the magnet it oriented.  There's no standard between manufacturers - they're usually only consistent within their own lines.  What you want is a particular waveform to cause all the cones to go out at the same time (rather than some in and some out).  
 
Phase relationship only matters when you're running multiple cabinets.  So, you can reverse the phase of one of your cabinets and there are no implications when you use that cabinet alone.
 
David Fung

palembic

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« Reply #23 on: May 06, 2007, 10:59:04 PM »
Hey Dave!
Thanks!
The guy from the electronic part store will check th eoutputs with a kind of measuring thing. I'll see what happens!
 
Paul TBO

lbpesq

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« Reply #24 on: May 07, 2007, 07:26:22 AM »
An easy way to check phase in a speaker is to touch the terminals of a 9v battery to the speaker terminals.  Assuming the battery has juice, it will make the speaker cone travel, either out or in depending on polarity.  (If the battery makes the speaker travel out, reversing the battery will make it travel in).  Now check out the other speakers in the system the same way and wire accordingly.
 
Bill, tgo