Effects loop - help

[cdf]

Help! I had a puzzling problem recently and was wondering if anyone out there had any thougths/advice. I have a Tribute guitar and since I got it have not really used any of the effects I previously played with (enough versatility without them). Anyway over the weekend I was playing with an overdrive pedal and vintage mutron-III in the on-board effects loop. When the signal path was guitar-overdrive-mutron I got virtually no signal at all. However switching it around to guitar-mutron-overdrive got much more signal, but still far less than with effects off. Overdrive by itself and mutron by itself worked ok. Guitar-mutron-overdrive also did not produce much signal with the overdrive pedal in by-pass. And lastly the in order to get adequate volume the gain or(drive) of the mutron and overdrive had to be really cranked up and still the volume increase when switching to effects off was considerable. I guess I should have tried using a guitar without a loop or active electronics to see if that made any difference. I do seem to remeber that before I had my Alembic the order of the effects chain did not have so much influence on output levels. Anyway I suspect the problem may lie in my semi-ancient mutron, it has not worked 100% in a long time, but if anyone out there has any ideas I would be very grateful to here them.
 
Thanks,
Court

[mica]

I'll ask my dad later this morning and see if we can figure out what ails ya.
 

[cdf]

Mica,  
 
Thanks for looking into this. Had to work late last night so I did not get to experiment further, but if I get home at a reasonable hour tonight I will try some other combos out and see what happens.
 
Thanks again,
Court

[rjw]

that is really strange.  since each effector works correctly individually, you wouldn't expect any difference in volume when they are cascaded in either order.
 
as you suggested you could try them in cascade in the signal after the guitar, but i don't expect that to make any difference.  
 
the circuit inside the Tribute model would feed the signal out the effects loop jack at the same volume as the regular output, and the signal returning from the effectors just goes thru a unity-gain buffer and then out the regular jack. so the signal returning to the effects loop doesn't get loaded any more than the input to a regular guitar amp.
 

[cdf]

Many thanks for the reply. I am also kind of baffled. The first chance I get this week I will experiment a bit more and let you know what it turns up.
 
Thanks again,
Court

[cdf]

I have still not had a chance to really experiment with this, but plan to do so this week and let you know the results. However in the meantime I have a question about the signal path. I thought the volume control on my Tribute was post the effects loop, i.e. the signal to the effects was always the same (volume-wise, not filter-wise) and then that signal after returning was either volume up or volume down before going out the regular jack. This also seems to be true because the tones of my effeccts don't seem to change with changes to the volume control they just are louder or softer, which is how I like it to be.  However, am I reading the response wrong or does it indicate the volume is pre loop and then the returned signal is not volume up or down before going out the regular jack? Sorry if I am not explaining this well.
 
Thanx,
Court

[rjw]

hi Court,
 
the volume control can be patched either before the effects loop or after, by changing the plugs inside the instrument. one way to test how it's plugged together now is to plug a cord in the regular output (necessary to turn the battery on) but don't plug it into the amplifier. instead plug the effects send lead into the amplifier. now you can see if the volume control is changing the effects send level, and if it doesn't change the level then the control is definitely after the effects loop. (if you want to change the volume control location look at the small circuit board inside near the pickup selectors. there are 2 jacks which have two pins each, but one doesn't go anywhere...it just has a short jumper from one pin to the other. remove the jumper plug and move the other plug over to where the jumper was originally. then plug the jumper in where the plug with wires was originally). there are some reasons you might want to have the volume control before the effects loop, in that location you can adjust the depth of an envelope follower device without leaning down to adjust it (but you have to walk back to your amplifier to adjust the final volume), or many people with a Mutron might want to have the volume control after, since they would set the Mutron sensitivity and want it to always stay the same and be dependent only on how hard they play the strings, so in that case the volume control should be after the effects loop so you can change the final volume without going back to the amplifier. with the Tribute you get either option.
 
-ron

[bracheen]

Can I ask a dumb bass player question?  What's a mutron?  This is to complicated.  Give me 4 strings and 1 note at a time.
 
Sam

[palembic]

I guess it is the thing that is also called The tube. Peter Frampton used it in Show me the way ....I think ...maybe ...could be ...
 
Hi Sam I Left a message at the Gig dep
 
 
Paul TBO

[adriaan]

Paul TBO, the Mutron is one of those funky Electro Harmonix stomp boxes. Not sure what it is exactly, but I think it's a tone shaping device that can make your bass or guitar sound like a good old analogue synth.
 
The Tube is a variation on the wah pedal: wah is about emphasising parts of the overtone content and shifting the center frequency of the effect. The Tube is a tube mounted on a small speaker, and you put the end of the tube in your mouth and shape the overtones the same way you create vowels when you talk - you must put your mouth close to a microphone because there isn't much sound coming out of your mouth this way (at least I hope not). The result can be a wah effect.
 
Come to think of it, the Mutron kind of works on the consonants in your sound.

[bracheen]

Good morning Paul
I responded to the Gig message.  It may be a little rambly but consider the sun isn't even up yet.
 
Sam

[dnburgess]

A Mutron is an envope follower - a signal from an intrument generates a control voltage, which goes up and down as the input signal loudness contour goes up and down. This in turn sweeps the filter frequency back and forward, like a wah.  
 
There was some discussion here: http://club.alembic.com/Images/449/4474.html?1051588877

[Manfred]

The Mutron III is an envelope follower made in the 70's and early 80's by Musitronics. The Elektro Harmonix version is a reissue called Q-tron, also designed by Mike Beigel.
Have a look at http://www.mu-tron.org/ to see what it is and listen to Bootsy to hear what it does. It's great in combination with an Octave pedal like the Boss OC2 or a Mutron Octrave Divider. (and it's earth shaking in combination with a Dod Meatbox).
The ultimate envelope follower is a Lovetone Meatball.
 
Manfred
 
Manfred

[bracheen]

Lovetone Meatball?
You're kidding me now, right?

[cdf]

Hi Ron,
 
Many thanks for the info. I have not done the test you mentioned, but I am pretty sure the volume is post effects. I like to be able to control volume at the guitar and to alter the effect by the force, speed, release etc of picking. However now that I know how to alter the patch I will experiment with that too. Really love the versatility of your electronics designs, seems like I have several guitars rolled up into one Tribute!
 
Thanks for this and thanks again for the explanation,
Court