Author Topic: Difference in Series electronics and Signature  (Read 654 times)

serialnumber12

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #15 on: February 03, 2006, 04:09:37 AM »
FUNKY SOUNDS!!!





keavin barnes @ facebook.com

David Houck

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #16 on: February 03, 2006, 06:57:12 AM »
Hugh; no problem, it sounds great!
 
Keith; I would love to hear your Brown Bass!  Come on up for a visit!

jacko

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #17 on: February 03, 2006, 06:58:32 AM »
Paul
One of the guys up here in Edinburgh has an MK signature but he doesn't subscribe to this club. If you're ever up here I'm sure we could arrange a listening session.
 
Graeme

kmh364

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #18 on: February 03, 2006, 08:08:25 AM »
Paul:
 
Just my $0.02.
 
I don't think you could go wrong with ANY Alembic. They all sound great, and each has their strengths and weaknesses. Sure, an SC will sound different than your Series...the scale length alone will make a significant difference, as will the electronics. There is nothing quite like a Series...there is an air around the notes like nopthing else...but the SC is different enough that it should compliment your axes nicely. Other than the potential balance issues with a short scale, small std. bodied-bass, it's all good.  
 
Personally, I have a virtually identical '04 clone of your Series I (34 scale, std. exc. for the 5A Quilt top/back) and I have an '04 Custom Orion 34 scale set-neck with EWM electronics (incl. J activators). They are like night and day. Both are fantastic instruments, but each has a different sound, feel and vibe. The Series is phenomenal: slim, fast neck, incredible sustain and thundering lows, with a big, heavy body. The Orion has killer midrange punch/growl and a chubbier neck but in a smaller, lighter package. Both are extremely versatile, and both are in 5A Quilt, LOL! They compliment each other nicely.
 
Cheers,
 
Kevin

angelboy

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #19 on: February 03, 2006, 09:40:23 AM »
Cheers fellas!
 
I'm over in New York and Vegas from Wednesday next week. I know Ed Romans has a few basses I could check out. They have a SC Deluxe in that I'm gonna try.
 
Does anyone know of any in New York that I could check out?
 
There's a SC with Series 2 electronics going in Europe - bit of a price on it's head though!!!

worldfamousandy

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #20 on: February 04, 2006, 05:38:46 AM »
I was in New York in December, and was somewhat dissapointed in the stuff I saw at Manny's and Sam Ash.  I think those stores rely so much on mail order business these days, that they don't focus on showroom inventory at all.  I could not find a single 4-string fretless bass at either shop.  The place accross the street from those stores, the name of which I can't remember, had some cool vintage stuff.
 
I didn't find much at Roman's in December, either.  They have a lot of inventory, but only a few basses that were truly nice.  I suppose it was worth stopping by, as I was in the nieghborhood anyway, but it was not the afternoon I had hoped for.
 
Andy
www.andycalderbass.com

jlpicard

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #21 on: February 04, 2006, 11:54:47 PM »
Getting back to Val's post, I don't think anythings ever been mentioned about the internal configuration of a Humcanceling pickup. My guess is the reason you can't coil tap is because there is only one active * coil inside. The other may be a dummy with the same amount of windings but no magnet similar to the concept of the series electronics but in a compact package. It has been stated that the Humcanceler has a smaller aperture than the big series single coils so that would account for the thinner sound. Just a hunch, but it has always struck me that the signature or more accurately the anniverery electronics package is Ron' way of updating/modernising/simplifying the series setup for ease of manufacture and cost control while losing little in the way of tone and versatilty. I'd bet that the design of the filter section of the circuit is not all that different from the series setup aside from the Q control capabilities of course. Oh yeah, and the fact that Series circuits run on +/-18 volts gives them more headroom than the 9V signature circuit. This is an oversimplification of what I understand is involved in the series circuit but I would think most of the sound improvement comes from those wider aperture single coils. Bob, care to comment?
* just an expression. Yes, I know Alembic pickups are not themselves active.

terryc

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #22 on: February 05, 2006, 08:26:31 AM »
For worldfamousandy..It's Rudy's Music Stop, I bought my MK Signature from there in 1998 and brought it back to the UK.
I think it would be very hard to tell the difference in Series/Signature electronics by the time you push it through more variations of tone controls on your amp..in the studio it would be more apparent.
I must admit there seems to be a lot more tonal variations achievable with the variable Q controls etc but I also would like to try & compare but Alembics are not seen on the wall of SoundAcademy here in Stockton on Tees

worldfamousandy

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #23 on: February 05, 2006, 12:24:19 PM »
Yes, Rudy's.  It is a cool store.  Thyanks for the reminder.
 
Andy
www.andycalderbass.com

lbpesq

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2006, 12:47:28 PM »
I bought my Taylor 810 at Rudy's back in '94 when 48th Street had a bunch more guitar stores than it does now.  48th Street definitely ain't what it used to be.  I was at Rudy's last summer.  They had 4 or 5 old strats (late '50's, early 60's) for $35,000-$50,000!  The guy said they would sell in a couple of weeks or so.  Amazing!  I'll be visiting there next wed/thur while I'm in NY.  Any suggestions for other shops besides 48th Street?  I'm especially interested in vintage and unusual, and, of course, any Alembics.
 
Bill, tgo

bob

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #25 on: February 06, 2006, 12:21:21 AM »
(jlpicard - we have several bobs here, but without being presumptuous I'll say a few words anyway - firstly, that it's nice to see aaaaarghboy back here again! And secondly, this is way too long, but now I'm too tired to prune it down...)
 
It feels to me like we are bouncing around at least three or four completely different factors in this discussion, and as a new reader I would be pretty confused about why (though not whether) Series electronics sound different from Signature.
 
1) The most important difference (other than cost) between Series electronics and everything else, is the pickups themselves. Series are single coil, the others are humcancelling.
 
By itself, the tone you get out of the Series pickups before any other electronics, vs. the AXY/MXY/FatBoy pickups, will be the biggest difference. Having never had a Series instrument in my hands for more than a few minutes at a time (and only a couple of times at that), I'm not the best one to characterize this, but many others here have tried.
 
I'm still a little fuzzy on the distinction between hum-cancelling vs. -bucking, and why it matters whether you can coil tap them or not. And yes, the AXY/MXY pickups have a smaller magnet/aperture than the Series, but the FatBoy uses the same larger magnet size as the Series - and I believe I have read that this was in an attempt to get closer to the Series sound, without the expense (but it's still fundamentally different, since it's not a single coil).
 
Regarding the power (9 vs. 18 volts), I really don't think this should be interpreted as suggesting that the non-Series instruments have limited headroom. Rather, the Series circuitry is sufficiently complicated that it sucks more juice, and/or maybe you just need it to properly handle the single-coils. I'm out of my element here, but I have to believe that if it would make a huge difference to throw an extra battery in the non-Series instruments, then it would be there.
 
2) I'm nearly certain (just short of stating it as fact), that aside from the Q controls, the filter modules are all the same - whether it's Series, or a non-series with one or two filters, or even an SF-2.
 
I believe that whether you have a two or three position Q switch, and what exactly the dB settings are in each position, is mostly a matter of parts values (resistor choices and stuff). You'll get more or less Q, more or less settings, but it's all the same stuff, not fundamentally a different circuit.
 
The Really Big Deal is the CVQ case. As far as I can tell (mostly by guessing), it takes a lot more of Ron's time to build one of these things, which is why they aren't generally available unless you order Series II electronics. Even then, the relatively modest upgrade cost from Series I to II probably doesn't cover the effort, but as long as you're in that deep...
 
In regard to the original question, whether you have a CVQ or a switch is really a separate issue, and not to be confused with the difference between Series electronics and the others: i.e., a Series I does not have CVQ.
 
3) How many volume knobs do you want? At the very least, you can have a separate volume for each pickup; those two plus a master; a single volume plus a pan; maybe throw in a pickup selector switch.
 
We've had some discussion about volume/pan versus separate volumes (not convincing, in my opinion), but again, this is a totally separate issue from the design of the pickups. I think all of these work well, and it comes down to mostly a matter of personal preference, not something that fundamentally changes or limits your tone possibilities.
 
4) How many filters do you want? This is probably a case where if one is good, two are better... but Signature gives you two, so that doesn't matter in this discussion (and thankfully, we don't have to get into the difference between a filter and the simpler tone controls, repeatability of settings, etc.).
 
5) As for the hollow body effect, I think keavin and I have graciously agreed to disagree on this matter. I'll still argue that the empty space is not sufficient to give you an acoustic effect, though I can believe that reducing the body mass may have an effect on tone. More likely, however, it's the Series pickups themselves, and/or more extreme use of the two filters.
 
 
To sum up (sorry for carrying on): regarding the original question, the key difference is not the number or type of controls, but the fact that one uses Series pickups and the other doesn't. That will make the biggest difference (assuming identical woods, strings, scale length, fingers...).
 
At the same time, that doesn't mean you would be disappointed with the sound of a non-Series instrument. It depends on what tone you are looking for. There probably is a special sound that just plain requires Series, but then again we have an awful lot of people here who are perfectly satisfied with non-Series, myself included.
 
The best thing to do would be to put aside the tone control configuration, and try to listen to the different pickups.
-Bob

David Houck

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #26 on: February 06, 2006, 09:18:15 AM »
Bob; I'm having one of those mornings where I don't yet trust myself to focus on work.  Given that, here's my question; if the main difference is the pickups, why do Series electronics require a thicker body?  (I could go downstairs and take the back plates off a couple basses, but I'm enjoying my coffee at the moment .)  I tend to think there's more to it than the pickups; but I don't really know.  I'm thinking there are some mysterious alchemical circuits involved.

bassman10096

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #27 on: February 06, 2006, 01:00:55 PM »
If I'm not mistaken, the reason for the thicker body with Series electronics is that there are more components in the package.  I don't dispute what Bob is saying about whether the filter modules, etc are the same in Series vs. Non-Series electronics.  
 
But I do know the noise cancellation circuitry required to manage Series pu's (which I think of as huge antennae) is pretty imposing.  I don't know how much space this requires, taken alone, but it may make the difference.
 
Don't know about whether the preamps are different between Series and non-Series, apart from the filters themselves.  Also (though this doesn't require more body thickness) don't forget the dummy pickup in the middle.  
 
Overall, my understanding is that the Series electronic package is significantly heavier than others.  From having held a box containing the full S2 package, I can say the components (including the pu's) are a load.

bsee

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #28 on: February 06, 2006, 02:43:50 PM »
Another bob stepping up...
 
I think that all we can really do from the outside is to identify the differences.  
 
The hollow body is now less of a differentiator as they are doing it to more instruments now than just Series.  When I ordered my bass, I had the option of hollow/solid and regular/series thickness and I believe there were no charges associated with the choice.  I was also told that hollow is now standard on Signature instruments, though I would seek confirmation of that if I were ordering again.  The bodies won't have as many plies as a Series instrument, but I doubt that has a significant impact on tone.  
 
The pickups are clearly different.  I would love to hear a description of the construction of the humcanceler.  If it truely is a live coil with a  pre-balanced dummy, then the tone should be pretty similar.  My understanding is that, as reported above, the Fatboy pickups use the same magnets as the Series pickups, and that they have a wider aperture than the AXY/MXY versions.  
 
In terms of electronics, I have never seen the inside of a Series bass.  Though the filters and preamps have the same functions in both circuits, I suspect that more compromises must be made the more you try to shrink them down and the less power you have available.  That would give a significant edge to the Series package.
 
Unless someone is the type to reverse-engineer the electronics and pickups, I am not sure we will ever know.  While I would love to know the full details, Alembic may need to hold some things back in order to protect trade secrets.  What I do know is that both Signature and Series instruments sound fantastic.  Do we really need to know more than that?
 
-bob

jazzyvee

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Difference in Series electronics and Signature
« Reply #29 on: February 06, 2006, 11:59:16 PM »
I know this is probably quite contraversal bearing in mind I do have a signature bass.
 
I agree that all alembics especially the series and the signature have a great range of tones available to the player. More so than any bass I have put my fingers on.
 
In reality how many sounds do we actually really use on gigs and sessions. I would argue that none of us use all the full flexibility in tones we have on our instruments we generally have a few that we can whizz the knobs to when needed.
 
The rest of it is about knowing we can get all the other sounds we need if required. But i doubt we ever do.
 
I spoke to a guy last year, when I was searching for an alembic bass, who has a series II 6 string bass and he had found the setting he liked and never moved it from there.
 
 
Jazzyvee
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