Author Topic: Flitz Metal Polish (Read 1088 times)

bigredbass · « **Reply #30 on:** February 19, 2006, 05:42:07 PM »

La Spiaggia Rosa . . . geez, EVERYTHING sounds wonderful in Italian ! !

J o e y

rockbassist · « **Reply #31 on:** February 19, 2006, 06:47:11 PM »

I spent 20 years working in the retail and wholesale environment as everything from a buyer to a regional manager. I know how markups work and how much companies markup in order to make a profit. I would never criticize anybody for making money when they can. I honestly hope that I did not offend anyone with this topic. I love my Epics even though I realize they are not the Top Of The Line Alembic. They are still better than anything else available at a comparable price. I love the tone, shape and feel of them. I also own a 1976 Fender Precision. Anybody who reads Bass Player Magazine will note that they constantly make mention that anybody who is serious about playing bass must own an old Fender. I do not agree with that. I own it because I bought it for a very low price and I like the way it sounds and plays. My feeling is play what you love to play regardless of who made it. I had 2 points to make when I posted this topic. One was why the markup when Alembic could have just directed users to the Flitz site and worked out a deal on the back end and also how much does it really cost to make a bass? My concern is that if you go to the Alembic price list you will see Epics starting at $4,400 but if you look at EBAY or any other site they sell for less than $1,500. Why don't they hold their value? I have seen 1976 Fender Precisions similar to what I own selling for $1,800 to $2500 on EBAY and other sites. I paid less than $500 for mine.

ajdover · « **Reply #32 on:** February 19, 2006, 10:49:28 PM »

First, let me thank Davide for the wonderful offer to spend summers at his place in Milano. Davide, you are also welcome to come visit myself and my wife in North Carolina. Bring your Alembic, I'll do the BBQ and we'll have a good time!

To Kevin, I too am puzzled as to why a vintage Fender (and I own two of them will hold or increase its value and an Alembic seemingly doesn't. I can only surmise that because Fender has been around so long, is more well known, has the mystique of mojo, etc., is why they're worth more. They're also historical in the sense that at least the pre-CBS models were the first of their kind (Broadcaster, '51 P Bass, '54 Strat, etc.) and as such have a lot of historical provenance. An Alembic doesn't necessarily have that, unless, of course, you get one of the more famous ones (the Godfather, Wolf, John Entwistle's Spyders, etc.) with a celebrity pedigree.

As I noted, I have a '73 Jazz and a '76 Precision. Neither are stock, though if I desired, I could return the Jazz back to stock if I wanted. I've noted that the Jazz basses of that era are going for $3500 or so these days, in good condition. I would consider mine in at least good condtion, and I paid $1350 for it less than 4 years ago, with original (though beat) case. Why are they going up in value? I don't know. Maybe it's because they don't make them like that anymore, they're old, well known? I don't know.

Alembics are and have always been, IMHO, a much more niche instrument than your average mass produced instrument. This automatically limits their appeal to the vast majority of players. Exotic woods, finely machined and produced hardware, extremely close tolerances, unique electronics, etc. do not appeal to most players, for a lot of reasons. Price is one, and for a lot of guys and gals, the determining factor. Their controls sometimes give the average player fits because they're not intrinsically familiar to them (roll off, boost cut active, etc.). Given these and I'm sure many other individual and personal factors, they don't have as wide an appeal as I and most everyone here think they should have.

I think the biggest reason for depreciation, though, is name recognition. I don't know how many times I've gone somewhere with one of my Alembics and no one else knew what brand it was. I don't know why this is - advertising has something to do with it. Low production numbers (compared to a Fender, Gibson, etc.) does too (limiting the number that are out there and other people see). Alembic also doesn't do endorsements, futher decreasing exposure. However, all of these things also permit Alembic, IMHO, to maintain the quality and reputation it enjoys amongst those who know of and use them.

Most folks can't afford a new Alembic. The fact that they don't hold value as well as a vintage Fender etc. is a plus for those of us who want an Alembic but can't afford something new. So I don't necessarily see lack of resale value as a negative in this sense.

As to why Alembic chose to market Flitz as they have, well, I guess you'd have to ask Susan or Mica about that one.

BTW, I bought my P-Bass simply to round out what I have. I always swore I'd never have one, but I do. It is a nice instrument, but a one trick pony IMHO. It has a nice tone, but only one tone for the most part. My Alembics can do it all (well, they can't do a Rick, but nothing else can except another Rick), so for me, they're worth every penny.

My two cents,

Alan

crgaston · « **Reply #33 on:** February 20, 2006, 05:00:36 PM »

This is a great discussion!

I drove for seven hours today, and thought for awhile on this topic, and specifically Kevin's most recent post regarding resale. Alan covered a lot of what I was going to say in his post above, so I won't repeat it.

Another thing to consider is that Alembic's list prices have increased drastically in the last 10 years or so. If you bought a new Epic in 95 for 1500, played it for 10 years, and then sold it for 1300 last year, you did good. On the other hand, seeing these basses for 1300 on ebay makes people not want to pay much more than that, so when someone tries to sell his 2 year old Epic that he gave 2500 for, he has to compete with that, or not sell his instrument. Why do people usually sell basses? Because they really need the money RIGHT NOW. Maybe they have bills to pay, or maybe they fell in love with another instrument and need to raise funds before somebody else gets it.

In 1994 I had the opportunity to buy a brand new Europa for 1400 in Nashville. Granted, that was a blowout price, but now they retail for 6600. If I had bought that, it would have appreciated for sure.

Alan, 3500 for a '73 Jazz?
I am now kicking myself for getting rid of my '69 Jazz back in '96. I got it for 250 from a pawn shop where my girlfriend at the time worked. After the relationship ended, seems like every time I pulled that bass out, she would call and try to start something, so I swaped it for a G&L SB-2. The G&L is a much better playing and sounding bass, so I did good on the trade, but it probably wouldn't go for 500 bucks right now. Shows you what the collectors know.

Gotta go,
Charles

richbass939 · « **Reply #34 on:** February 20, 2006, 07:00:24 PM »

J Gary, the story about the IRS agent makes my blood boil. I wonder if she would dare bust on a fortune 500 company that buys or leases luxury cars for execs when three year old Kias would get them from point A to point B just fine. Why not disallow deductions for IBM computers when XYZ brand would do fine.
Instead she would rather you go into a burning building with the cheapest turnout gear on the market. People like that would probably never understand why you would want an Alembic.
Okay, I'm going to go cool off now.
Rich

bsee · « **Reply #35 on:** February 20, 2006, 09:02:37 PM »

I also had a reply covering much of what AJ had to say, but I didn't get around to finishing it yesterday. I agree with all his points.

One other thing to toss out about Fender basses. Take a look at their custom shop models. The Jaco and Pino models list for over $4000 each and these are still off-the-shelf instruments without user-specific customization. These basses are the same shape as the $500 instruments and using pretty much the same wood. What's different? The amount of labor they are putting in to make sure they are perfect, I suppose. These are still bodies cut from a single piece of wood with a bolt-on neck. They still have to take less labor to put together than a 5+ piece laminated neck glued to a 2+ piece laminated body with a bookmatch top etc. Then add that wood is alive. If a piece of neck wood goes bad and twists, Fender just bolts on another. That's got to be less work than ungluing a neck-through and building a new neck for it. Certainly no need to respray the whole Fender, but an Alembic needs a new finish if something like this happens.

With regard to resale value, I suspect that many of the people paying large dollars for old Fenders were starting to play their instruments in the 50s, 60s and 70s. When we were learning to play, there were less than 2000 Alembics in existence and those were all high-end. Few of us have fond memories of our first real bass being a new Series I. I suspect that many of us here and elsewhere started on Fenders or clones. When we're feeling nostalgic, we want to hold that '71 Jazz that we played on 25 years ago. I sold mine 12 years ago and deeply regret it. I'd rather play my Alembic if I had to choose one, but the Jazz had a special vibe. In any case, the point is that a lot more players were exposed to Fenders in their youth and that creates a greater nostalgia-based demand from them in their later years. Just a thought...

ajdover · « **Reply #36 on:** February 20, 2006, 09:43:30 PM »

Bob is absolutely right on in regards to the nostalgia factor, an aspect I hadn't considered. I bought my '73 Jazz for the very reason Bob succinctly notes - I had one in my youth and sold it. In fact, the Jazz I have now is exactly like the one I sold - All natural, white pickguard, black block neck, Badass II bridge, Seymour Duncan pickups. Same goes for my Rickenbackers - a product of my longing for the basses I played in my youth. Others I bought because they were always basses I wanted when younger but couldn't afford (Alembic, Gibsons, etc.). Others I just had to have (Pedulla, Peavey with a whammy bar, etc.). As time goes on, these instruments are only getting more expensive. I guess even nostalgia has its price!

Charles: Yes, $3500 for a 70's Jazz. You would think they'd be less, but there it is.

Alan

dejan · « **Reply #37 on:** February 21, 2006, 03:37:25 AM »

Alan,it's incredible,we play the same basses!I own a Peavey,a Pedulla and a Fender jazz with Badass bridge and Seymour Duncan Pickups!!(One of us spy the other one's movements...pay attention) ;-)

(Message edited by mica on February 21, 2006)

ajdover · « **Reply #38 on:** February 21, 2006, 06:46:52 AM »

Davide, My Pedulla is an MVP 4, while I have three Jazz's; a '73 with the Seymours and the Badass; an 05 MIA Deluxe; and a '94 MIJ with Seymour's and a Badass. My Peavey is an '89 Dyna Bass Unity Series limited with the Kahler. Great minds think alike as they say. ;-) Alan

(Message edited by mica on February 21, 2006)

dejan · « **Reply #39 on:** February 21, 2006, 08:28:21 AM »

Great Alan,beautiful basses.My Pedulla is a MVP PJ 5,the Peavey is a BQuad4(I've only ghanged the finish of the Modulus neck,now it is natural graphite satin),this is actually my main bass,two active VFL soapbar pickups and a Fishman piezo on a Wilkinson bridge with stereo outputs,I have the possibility to split E string on the left and A string on the right x ex.what can I ask more?The Fender is a Deluxe 5 with Badass bridge,Basslines pickups,Aguilar OBP3 electronic(18V)and Hipshot Ultralight tuners.I also changed the nut(real bone)and the pickguard(now is satin black,I don't like Turtoise!) So now I'm ready for an Alembic (I've owned an Elan4 but it was not good for my taste,the Alembic sound that I aspire is Series1).Bye Alan and thanks to invite me in North Carolina,I hope that we will play together in the future!The picture figure a soundcheck before a summer concert in my beautiful little island (La Maddalena)

mica · « **Reply #40 on:** February 21, 2006, 11:04:04 AM »

Usually if someone asks about cleaning old hardware, I advise that you can purchase Flitz from a local marine or gun shop, or you can buy it from us if you can't find it locally. When you get Flitz from us, we include an ultra-soft disposable wiper and a little insert on properly cleaning your hardware.

We use a standard markup (or less) for items that we do not manufacture. I'm sure we don't get the best discount from Flitz, since we buy in small quantities. I visited the Flitz website, and they seem to sell the same 50g tube for $10.70. I've seen it priced lower other places, like flitz-polish.com, but of course, they only sell Flitz, so I suspect they buy in slightly bigger quantities than we do.

About going public, I can't imagine it ever happening. One look at the profit margins would send investors reeling in laughter, they would be looking for more than we can offer in that arena.

Nice pictures everyone - it's always interesting to see how threads wander.

old_guy · « **Reply #41 on:** February 21, 2006, 01:38:12 PM »

Nice knowing the Pedulla's are still out there. I had one in the 80's. Pedulla-Orsini then. Kept cracking at head stock joint. Michael P. always honored his warranty though. Last I herd it found its way to Cincinnati. My 76 S-1 out lived many basses, and still stands in the corner almost laughing! Michael S.

j_gary · « **Reply #42 on:** February 21, 2006, 03:50:48 PM »

Hi Mica, I hope you are right about the laughing investors.

The ones I worry about have no sense of humor, loyalty or honor. They would pay dearly for the Alembic name and reputation for quality. Then slap the name on everything from biscuits to bunnies.

Oh, and the guitars? Boatloads from Tic Tac Toe guitar and beer nut factory.

Jeez, I'm sending this stuff to Debbie Downer of Saturday Night Live.

Make em show you the money Mica. And require a change in the spelling to Olympic.

Davide, PLEASE can I join your band! Beautiful photo.

rockbassist · « **Reply #43 on:** February 24, 2006, 08:25:56 PM »

I was fortunate enough to buy 2 Epics for less than $1800 total. I bought one at a Guitar Center and one from a private owner on ebay. As someone who spent 20 years working in retail management, I fully understand supply and demand economics. The point of my original email was why the huge markup on Flitz and how much is Alembic marking up everything else? Why not just work out a deal with Flitz and provide a link to them? My second point was that even though I love my 76 Precision and 78 Jazz basses, I cannot understand why Alembics do not resale for more than them. I agree with ajdover and crgaston that the reason Fenders are in demand is because of name recognition and the fact that they were the first. But were they really the first? Ampeg was the first to amplify a bass with it's peg/pickup on upright basses. They called it and Amplified Peg which is where the name Ampeg came from. Leo Fender made the first true bass guitar or electric bass. Alembic is better made and has better tone and feel than anything else I have played. While other users might not agree with my opinion, I love the feel, tone and playability of Epics, Essences and other similar styled Alembics. I am not a big fan of the Mark or Series basses because I do not like the style or the way the feel. That is just my opinion so please do not email me. I respect what anyone plays as long as they are happy with it. My philosophy has always been play what makes you happy and make the most of it. I love my Epics. I live less than 10 minutes from where Pedulla is made and wouldn't even think of using them. I played several of their basses and have a very good friend who worked for them. I have tried pretty much every bass they make and every manufacturer there is. In my opinion the only thing that comes close to Alembic in terms of sound and feel is a Warwick Neck Through Thumb Bass. Alembic is without a doubt the bass for me.

j_gary · « **Reply #44 on:** February 25, 2006, 07:58:08 AM »

Hi Rich, just found your post, thanks.

I had not thought about my IRS issues in that vain. You make an excellent point as I was making less than $20,000 a year both times I got audited.
Once as a musician, and once as a new firefighter.

The root of the problem both times was the fact that I spent over 10% of my income on equipment, and claimed it as deductions. I believe the catch is, you may only deduct items that your employer requires you to have. You cannot claim personal choice items that you decide to use at work.

Stay low richbass939, with a name like that I fear the IRS is watching!