Author Topic: Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...  (Read 645 times)

lg71

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #15 on: December 03, 2006, 11:59:42 AM »
I'll be back later on today for more... lol
 
Right now, we are going to watch School of Rock with Jack Black on TV, a really cool movie, we saw it once and really liked it... I like this guy, he is very peaceful and positive, and funny of course.
 
 Later, LG

mica

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #16 on: December 03, 2006, 02:47:47 PM »
Louis-Gino,  
 
When you ask me my opinion about something, like do I like mid-range in bass tones, I will tell you my opinion. As far as I am concerned, we're not really interested in these frequencies in a band setting. This is not an argument. It's an expression of an opinion based on years of observation both in live and recording studio settings. To my ears, much of the midrange interferes with distinct bass sounds, and muffles subtle techniques of even skilled players.  
 
As I've told anyone that inquires about mid-range controls, we have a mid-range control under development, to be released toward the end of 2007, first as direct retrofit for Music Man basses. Your projects are usually urgent, and so I suggested an external SF-2 Superfilter in our last conversation.
 
As I recall, you are recording from your bass to your computer, and that using a SF-2 would mean changing your whole recording process, which you were not prepared to do. Perhaps some other folks that are using the SF-2 in a similar environment can give you some advice about adding this to your signal path so that you can start enjoying the added control over your sound.  
 
Although the interface is not as straightforward as a parametric EQ, and you've expressed your deeper understanding of this circuit, the SF-2 gives an even more precise amount of control than a parametric EQ does, since you can change the type of filter, the frequency, and the damping ratio of two independent filters, while mixing in as much of your original unfiltered sound as you need. I hope you get to try one someday.
 
Lots of people want more simple electronics, so we offer Epic and Essence styles. There are those customers that want more control onboard their instruments than any standard model we make. In these cases, we build what they need, provided they can express their requirements and teach us what they are after.

lg71

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #17 on: December 03, 2006, 04:52:24 PM »
The Black_sheep (LG) is back... (the movie was great btw)
 
NLP, I never had a Bass rig with real amps/preamps, cabs or what- else, and I never played live either. While I cannot comment about it, one thing I know for sure, is that proper rigs have mid control(s). As for sizes and cost, we can keep talking about this for ever... Obviously, if it won't fit, you have to have it enlarged or forget about it... The_8_Strings_King had it done once, that just mean that it's already been done, and this circuit does exist, period (Ok, maybe it got lost)... Here I am talking about something that has already been done by Alembic, hence the topic of this thread. What hasn't been done hasn't been done, that's why I proposed things like raising money to ask Ron if he would do it.
 
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Bob, I already mentioned SF-2 and I do know that there are many cheap devices out there with mid control, but I wouldn't want to run my circuit through cheap stuff, it would defeat the object, which is to keep the signal as clean, clear and Alembic as possible. Once it get recorded, I can use superior algorithms to process it further. It's just that I would like to get close to that final sound, while I am tracking/playing/recording, for the vibe. But I think that you should have address this comment to The_8_Strings_King really, He is having his Second custom...
 
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Georgie, I am glad that you enjoy the thread, I hope that it'll go in the intended direction; peaceful, constructive and positive.
 
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Olie, I see you have experience the post process syndrome, sometimes it good, sometimes it's bad, sometimes it's dome for creative purpose, sometimes for correction or to make it sit or cut through... The problem with acoustics is an other one of course, especially when mic'ing up stuff, but when D.I, the good option is to use headphones, I can recommend the Sony MDR-7506 (closed, foldable and compact) and the Seinnheiser HD600 (opened), that helps a lot if the acoustic is bad/poor.
 
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NLP, not everyone understand engineering, mixing or production, of course, if you are able to make your own complete montage, and make them sound great, then you can surely tell the engineer what you want. Very often, musicians are NOT allowed in the Control room at the Mix Down stage, which is self explanatory. But I don't need help with that, and I not wish to discuss production techniques. Regarding your very last question, I am not sure what you meant.
 
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Mica, I am glad that you remember saying this to me, but doesn't matter really, I am not going to argue with you, because you are the Boss and don't have money, authority or power either. But I will discuss it with members, if they want me to. So, if you are not interested in Low-Mid/Mid range, I surely won't discuss it with you again - that's clear.
 
I am glad that you are working with Musicman, in fact, I like the sound of Bernard Edwards/Chic very much, and further, I enclose a link, please listen to the whole think, that's a Musicman Sabre, it's quite very interesting in fact, that you are working on something like that, please describe the sound of the bass in the link, wether you like it or not, and how would you personally go about shaping and Alembic to make it sound close? I can, but post process... Now, sorry to go on about this, but it is a quite amazing to hear that you are working on a circuit for Musicman, you see, I knew that you could do it, I mean, not a big deal for you, you gonna do it right, no doubt... unfortunately for me, my wallet is not big enough to ask you such things. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dOSnea3wNKs Please listen to all of it, it's only 4 minutes! The bass FUNK.... (My favorite track is around 1 minutes 50 seconds).
 
As for the SF-2, I never said anything about it, sure enough, it's a multimode Filter, but I cannot afford it! Does it mean that I am not allowed to talks Mid/Low-mid frequencies anymore? Or does it mean that the mid controls on The_8_Strings_King's bass would cost more than an SF-2? I personally don't think so, we are not talking about the whole circuit though... just a module(s)
 
Further on the SF-2, I NEVER said what you said: As I recall, you are recording from your bass to your computer, and that using a SF-2 would mean changing your whole recording process, which you were not prepared to do. Perhaps some other folks that are using the SF-2 in a similar environment can give you some advice about adding this to your signal path so that you can start enjoying the added control over your sound. and I don't need advice about how to use one or what it does either. I have near 300 post, and my Memory is Rock Solid to this day - I touch wood! - All I ever said, was that I could emulate an SF-2 post recording, with Filters/EQ DSP plugins, nothing less or else. I cannot afford an SF-2, but if you sent me one for Christmas, I would surely know what to do with it! (God knows, sometimes, we have to get lucky...)
 
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(Message edited by lg71 on December 03, 2006)

inthelows

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #18 on: December 03, 2006, 05:11:36 PM »
I wonder if you could get this in there!!  ;-)
And I'm not trying to stir your pot, only stimulate conversation. I do have to say I agree with Mica about the mids ability to muddy up the sound if your not careful.
I just think most builders think that there are many devices out already doing that job.
I do know that if you are an audiophile even to a small degree from a manufacturer's point the R & D cost to get a decent mid/ mid/lo control into a small cavity has got to cost a small fortune.  
NLP
http://cgi.ebay.com/PRESONUS-EQ3B-THREE-BAND-PARAMETRIC-EQ-NEW-IN-BOX_W0QQitemZ150064198123QQihZ005QQcategoryZ23790QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

lg71

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« Reply #19 on: December 03, 2006, 06:13:29 PM »
NLP, I saw this one before thanks  You know, I have been looking around already, and I can tell you that this is the cheapest analog three bands Fully Parametric EQ on earth! Not that I am saying bad things about Presonus, but ?59 for a three bands fully parametric EQ sounds a bit cheap... OK, I never heard it, but the proverb you get what you pay for, must be quite valid especially for something like that. As I said, good DSP, can rival mid range priced hardware EQs, but in the High end Analog domain, it's an other story - I personally much prefer good Analog processors over Digital.
 
But Ok, as we are talking and you are interested, I'll reveal something (I probably said this before); I have a Bass Pod XT, that's all I have and I am not ashamed of saying it, and it's got dual phase aligned outputs, one dry and one wet, so, obviously, as you can imagine, I practice, play record through it, using amp simulation and EQs (for the vibe), and record both channels, the dry and the wet... then, I can process the dry one to my liking with DSPs...
 
So, what's all the fuss about you might ask? The answer is simple, I like the sound quality of the Alembic circuit very much, and I would like to shape the sound further, using the same circuit, using Ron's mid range control/ Filter, so I get the sound I want before it gets to tape (recorded). As I cannot afford an SF-2, I assumed that a couple of switches like the one on The_8_Strings_King for instance, might well do the trick and fit the bill
 
As for Mica's thoughts on Mid-range controls, as well as yours, I am not going to discuss anything here, it's her company, her products, and she decides what's good for her business. If they decided that Low pass Filters and Q-switches were more important than a fully Parametric Filter, there is nothing I can change about it...
 
Shaping the low-mid/mid on the bass guitar is an art in itself, same goes for the bottom and top end... you can cut, boost, hit frequencies, narrow or wide... These are the tools of the engineer, no everyone have the skills to understand what they do, or most importantly, how to do it... Anyway, there is no need to argue over low-mid/mid range control/ shaping, each it's own opinion, experience and expertise. I was well prepared to A/B something to try to convince Mica or Ron, but it won't happen, because I am not even given the chance anyway.

lg71

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #20 on: December 03, 2006, 10:25:47 PM »
In case you like that song, here is old original:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7BaKUI87TWc
 
This is the time were lyrics were Proper and Love was flowing nicely, you could feel it...

inthelows

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #21 on: December 04, 2006, 05:06:11 AM »
Love the jump suits ! :^)

bassjigga

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« Reply #22 on: December 04, 2006, 09:47:38 AM »
I couldn't agree more with Mica regarding midrange controls. Bass players seem to be obsessed with them these days. In my opinion all they do is muddy things up.

olieoliver

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« Reply #23 on: December 04, 2006, 02:38:16 PM »
I guess I'm not in the minority then. I've never use a lot of mid range in my bass sound. Muddy is one way of putting it, but the mids create more of a hollow muddy sound. I love that fat bottom a with a crisp clean high end.

lg71

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« Reply #24 on: December 04, 2006, 05:37:39 PM »
Mica, you said:
 
When you ask me my opinion about something, like do I like mid-range in bass tones, I will tell you my opinion. As far as I am concerned, we're not really interested in these frequencies in a band setting. This is not an argument. It's an expression of an opinion based on years of observation both in live and recording studio settings. To my ears, much of the midrange interferes with distinct bass sounds, and muffles subtle techniques of even skilled players...
 
I haven't been making Bass guitars since I was 10 and I am not a Luthier either, but I have been making Music for that long, recording my own Basses, Guitars and vocal parts, as well as Keys, Horns and strings and special FX... What you say just above doesn't make sense to me and and most creditable Mixing Engineers. Members are coming back, and this thread is taking the wrong direction.
 
Let's get started:  
What frequency(ies) are you talking about?  
Are you boosting, cutting or both, and by how much?
What's the Q Value(s), narrow, medium, wide...?
 
So you are claiming that ANY of those unspecified settings are going to result in what you described above, right?
 
Next, your Excellent Low Pass Filter with the Q-switch is hitting Low- mid/Mid frequencies specifically right? Yes it does.
Next, looking at the plot for the Bass/Treble module, if you cut both, Bass and Treble, you end up with more Mid right? Yes you would.
Next, if you Boost the Bass and Treble, we end up with a Low-Mid/Mid cut right? Yes we would.
 
Now, if you told me that you were really busy and had little time to consider requests, I would understand and I would much prefer to hear that, but on the other hand, if you are claiming that in your experience with are talking mud... then, I am not happy.
 
Let's not forget that the thread is about existing Low-Mid/Mid range CONTROL(S) and NOT specific settings, those who don't understand what I have been talking about, will surely not understand how to go about mixing their own little demo...
 
Further, the Bass guitar and the Bass Drum/Kick require special attention, after all, it's the bottom end, the foundation... Again, what Kit is it, what's the size of the Bass drum, is it opened, mic'ed on it's own, etc... Then you realize that things start to get a bit more complicated than it sounded at first, not to forget other instruments/sounds that might work with or against the Bass Drum and the Bass Guitar... So how do we tackle this? Mic Placement and room acoustic is one, EQ is another one... Oh, but if you D.I the bass... you don't have to worry about room/mic placement - do you, that's right, so what do we do next, we EQ... OK, to avoid further comment, EQ can use creatively or for correction (as it was intended originally). As far as I am aware, the Low-Pass Filter and Q-switch are creative tools to me, not for correction (ok, for the nerd, you can correct a little if you want with it - but we don't usually correct with such tools).
 
Well, let's see what comes next...
 
LG aka the Black Sheep is already expecting some non-constructive feedback...
 
Many regards, Me & Myself
 
PS: How many of you here, are claiming that they have composed, recorded and mixed their own complete pieces of Music, made it sound good, yet, never EQ the Low-Mid/Mid on the bass (oh, I forgot, for those who don't know, EQing is not just boosting, it can mean cutting as well...)?
 
Edited the section for misspelling, I meant the Bass/Treble module.  
 
(Message edited by LG71 on December 04, 2006)

lg71

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #25 on: December 04, 2006, 07:36:12 PM »
NLP, you ask to clarify about the Harness, there is nothing special or complicated really, it's just standard parts I was referring to.
A Harness is a complete kit, for instance; 1 Low-Pass Filter, 2 Volumes and a Jack socket, would be the Harness for a Persuader Bass... I think that an Excel Harness would have as standard, 2 volumes (or 1 Volume + 1 Pan), and a Bass + Treble boost/cut...
 
Regarding my original question, I just meant, for those who have some Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on their Alembic Basses, what does it do exactly, by where, I meant what frequencies, by how much, I meant boost or cut in db, etc...

lg71

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #26 on: December 04, 2006, 08:56:00 PM »
LG aka the Black Sheep goes one step further...
 
What do the following Basses have in common sonically?
- Fender Precision
- Fender Jazz Bass
- Musicman Stingray/Sabre
- Rickenbacker, Gibson, Aria SBs...
 
Answer: they all have their unique + distinctive character/sound... ah ah...
 
- What is it that they don't have?
 
Answer: A flat frequency response...! that means a lot, and doesn't mean good news either... hum! interesting...
 
--------------------------------------------------
 
Now, what makes an Alembic unique and distinctive sonically (forget the wood for a sec - will you), as far as the higher end models are concerned?
 
Answer: the Low Pass Filter, the Q-switch and PUs -The Electronics.
 
- What does the Alembic has that the other Basses don't have sonically?
 
A flat frequency response... (which is a bonus - if the potential is understood!)
 
So, the secret weapon of the Alembic sound is the Low Pass Filter and the Q-switch/CVQ,
 
OK, so if we remove the Filter + Q-switch, we end with clean high end quality flat response.
I don't mean anything bad, and the advantage becomes obvious once you tweak the Filter/Q-switch...
Anyone who as an Alembic, is probably using the Filter/Q-switch most of the time right? I like it.
 
So, when you have a flatter response, it is in theory easier to get closer to a specific sound, as oppose to  
if you started with a very very distinctive sound. Knowing that, you, I, both can get close to the sound of one of the instruments
mentioned above (of course, you have to know how to use the tools, and the main tools are Parametric Filters (it doesn't matter what type
exactly for now - we just talk), the Low Pass is good/used a lot, the High Pass is used 100% of the time in Music production (Kick/Bass), then come Notches,  
Peaking, Band Pass, Comb and so on...). To my experience and knowledge, a Fully Parametric one would be H.O.T (yeah, let's forget about the misunderstood
Low-Mid/Mid Malarkey for a sec...) and for the sake of it, let's p*ss everyone off and make it 20Hz to 20KHz! Happy with that?  I am...          
 
---------------------------------------------------
 
By analyzing this, we can conclude that a Bass guitar that can reproduce a flatter frequency response sonically,
does clearly have an obvious advantage, for shaping/creating a/new sound(s)...  
 
Let me put it this way, if you were to shape or carve into something flat/neutral to start with, you'd have more headroom
than if you started to shape something that isn't - right?    
 
So, for me, this is part of the reason I choose the Alembic sound. Unfortunately, because I am aware of these variables, it simply
made me want to have more control, on the instrument itself. I do not want to have (cannot either) to end up with a collection of various
Basses.  One would do me fine...
 
---------------------------------------------------
 
Now, things I haven't mentioned, let's not call mud things that we know nothing about, I'll tell you what;
Let's talk about playing style, sound and tuning, then strings, fretless/fretted...
 
- Slap/Pop/Thumping...
- Fingering Rock Style...
- Fingering Funk Style...
 
Are you telling me that all require the same sound/EQuing?
C'mon, be true to your self!
 
Some guys Rock... No?
 
Some guys Funk... No?
 
Some guys Slap... No?
 
Yet, it's a different SOUND.
 
You know guys/girls, whoever you are, you have to accept (learn it would be even wiser) that various sound, music, style require
different approach and attention, If you stay narrow minded, you will miss a lot the beauty and valuable knowledge that are out there in this world.  
 
There is NO such a thing, as one fit all size kind of thing.
 
-----------------------------------------------------
 
Thank you - I know you enjoyed reading!

David Houck

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #27 on: December 04, 2006, 09:50:44 PM »
I haven't really been paying close attention to this thread, but thought I would make a few observations.
 
It's a small shop.  With a huge backlog of work.  It is not unusual for one instrument to take over a year to be completed.  Bench time for projects is scarce.  The wait time to get to Ron's bench can be months.
 
There are a lot of people waiting patiently for Mica to take pictures and post them to their FTC threads.
 
There are a lot of people waiting patiently for Mica to look up and post serial number requests.
 
There are a lot of people waiting patiently for Mica to design and post the layout for COM.
 
There are a lot of suppliers, there are a lot of dealers, there are a lot of customers.  There are a ton of phone calls, emails and posts.  There are people standing in Mica's office waiting for her to get off the phone.
 
Etc. Etc. Etc.
 
There are some people who are waiting patiently for Mica to go home and fix dinner.
 
As far as recording goes.  My guess is that more albums have been sold that were recorded by Ron and Alembic than by any other members of this forum; I could be wrong but it seems a reasonable guess.  I would further guess that Alembic's Ron Wickersham has probably played a more important role in the innovation of and history of recording than most other members of the forum.  I would still further guess that Ron has designed more innovative pieces of sound equipment than most other members of this forum.  I doubt anyone here has designed anything close to an ELF.
 
And then there was of course the Wall Of Sound.
 
I guess the point of all of this is to say that, while lots of members of this forum have posted lots of very interesting ideas to these many threads ..
 
It's a small shop.
 
As much as she might like to, Mica simply doesn't have the time to respond to all the phone calls, emails and posts that are directed to her.  A lot of the members of this forum volunteer their time to help other members with questions.  One of the reasons that they do this is that they know from experience that Mica has a very limited amount of time to devote to the forum.  So they help out.
 
So yes, the people at Alembic probably have a lot more experience with sound, with understanding sound, with designing sound, with recording sound, with building sound, than most of the rest of us do or ever will.  And yes, they are very, very busy.
 
And that's ok.  Each of us can only be doing what we are doing right now.  The sum total of all our life experiences has culminated in the action that we are doing right now.  And how we move forward from here is up to each of us.  Hopefully, our actions will be guided by awareness of and compassion for the lives of everyone we encounter.
 
Hmmm ... looks like I'm hijacking my own post.  Better stop here.
 
 
Oh, and for those of you who haven't read it yet, this might be a good time to point to ..
 
The Long Story
 
It makes for some very entertaining reading!

Bradley Young

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #28 on: December 04, 2006, 10:38:49 PM »
Mid controls are a waste of time, unless they're cut only.
 
That might sound crazy, but I remember reading that Roger Sadowsky's basses are well known for sounding okay when soloed, but in a band situation, they just cut right through the mix.  This is because he pre-EQs his basses at 400Hz or so (whatever the secret sauce is).  And I don't mean boosting.
 
quote:?In all my prototype evaluations of preamp circuits over the last 20 years, I have never heard a 3-band EO that sounded, to my ear, as good as a 2- band?even with the midrange set flat or bypassed,? says Roger, who goes on to assert that ?a midrange control can make a bass sound worse, especially out in the house or on tape, as opposed to in the player's monitor.?
 
from: http://www.sadowsky.com/media/support/library/pdf_reviews/bp0402_preamp_rev.pdf
 
Looking at the F2B (which was Alembic's first product!) it does have a midrange control.  You guessed it: cut only.

lg71

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Low-Mid/Mid control(s) on Alembic Basses...
« Reply #29 on: December 04, 2006, 10:44:30 PM »
My observations then;
 
When there is loads of work, it means that the business is Good, which = Job vacancies/opportunities or continuous/endless pressure/ back-log...
 
As for Ron, I don't know why you brought up all this really? You obviously make it look like I am tring to compete with him, but if you carefully read the whole thread, and have some basic knowledge of sound engineering, you'd appreciate that all I said made sense. At least, as far the recording/mixing process is concerned - let alone my infamous topic on the low-mid/mid control(s).
 
Now, as far as Ron contribution as you pointed out, I am happy with that - no problem - no doubt... - Why stop there? We may as well stop using the internet, if we start thinking that we don't need to move on anymore, don't you think? - Why don't we al start playing Double Bass, and ditch the electric bass then... that was evolution...
 
The technology is moving fast, kids start learning about acoustic, engineering, productions techniques and so on... The internet makes it happen real fast, these days kids know how to use a Parametric Filter, 20 years ago they didn't...
 
I am helping members too whenever I can.
 
As far as I am concerned, I have creative and constructive ideas, I like to move on, as fast as possibly can... ME, I am NOT the Sucker type, if I am happy with Mica I tell her, if I am not I tell her too. That means communicating, being alive, having feelings. You know, the opposite of Love, is NOT hate, it's ignorance!
 
I proposed a custom Alembic Media Player - only four members considered it! Do you call this contribution, collaboration? That's the type of person I am, constructive, and bring ideas that make sense or are useful, and I am not a follower. If I get hated - I don't care - I feel good about myself. If this life is cruel - I don't care - next life will be better...
 
Some like to share pictures/photos, some like to share Music, to me it's music, the instruments look nice, but they were designed to played!
 
(Message edited by lg71 on December 04, 2006)