Troubleshooting for 5 string Spoiler #86S4221

[Artgeckko]

Good morning.

Thank you both for the excellent advice and info!
Honestly hadn't even thought about the holes being enlarged. 
Thats a bummer, but it is what it is.

Read the thread you had about the holes and fix, Ed (great work, btw)
Also, JimmyJ, I read yours about the nut shim idea, smart idea!
So much to ponder the next couple of days.
I have DR 40-120 strings on it now, which is which is what I'm used to on the 4 string basses,
Friday the hardware and puller comes, so I'll cross that bridge then.
Will give it a few days off in the meantime and game plan.
Thank you again!

[goran]

Wow nice work man, so I think this is one of the best forum in the world, really nice community that help each other.
You have a gorgeous bass!!

[pauldo]

Wow nice work man, so I think this is one of the best forum in the world, really nice community that help each other.
You have a gorgeous bass!!

100%

[Artgeckko]

Could not agree more with Goran's statement. 
Really an unbelievable group of helpful people!

I was reading some of Mica's older posts regarding threaded inserts.
Will be needing some to replace the existing wood screws for the back plate and truss rod cover screws.
Thankfully, the inserts are okay for the PU, with the exception of one...
Any insight on good ones, or where to acquire?  See some at Lowes for sale...

[edwardofhuncote]

Here's the FAQ post on Threaded Inserts, with installation instructions... sizes included.


https://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=207.0

[Artgeckko]

As always, many thanks Ed,

I'm familiar with Mica's post.  I've read it more than a few times.  Took me a bit to figure out the "tool" .  pretty clever.
There seems to be quite a few different wood inserts out there (of various sizes) didn't know if there was any clear cut winners. 
The ones on Mica's post seem fairly generic.  That will be this weekends mission.

Now an Update-

New gold strap buttons and tuners are on, and the old control knobs have been pulled off( purchased the knob puller from Stewmac, definitely worth wait on that tool!) Thankfully, the surface crack did not budge during removal of knobs.
It looks like all the holes have been enlarged.  Bottom rear hole appears to have a plastic insert? possible others have been removed or routed out??
So far each step has shown that much of the previous "work" done on this bass was not very respectful to the instrument.
Did plug in the bass today (before taking out knobs) and noticed that the output level of the electronic are much, much lower than that of my other basses.
Tried my collection of Fenders, Ricks, and stingrays...Active and passive, all were much louder??
Not sure what that means yet.
Not sure if low output is customary of these basses or if the electronics are the probable suspect.
( as you pointed out, the electronics are a hodgepodge of factory and 2nd and 3rd party, so anythings possible)
Battery looks new, but will check it am.
Will add some picts of progress tomorrow.
Talk soon!
E

[Songdog]

Did plug in the bass today (before taking out knobs) and noticed that the output level of the electronic are much, much lower than that of my other basses.
Tried my collection of Fenders, Ricks, and stingrays...Active and passive, all were much louder??
Not sure what that means yet.
Not sure if low output is customary of these basses or if the electronics are the probable suspect.
( as you pointed out, the electronics are a hodgepodge of factory and 2nd and 3rd party, so anythings possible)
Battery looks new, but will check it am.

As someone with solid electronics background (but no specific experience working on Alembic electronics) I'll venture an informed guess. I expect some people with more direct experience will be along with more specific information soon.

Alembic's approach to pickups and active electronics in instruments was to use low impedance pickups. They are wound with fewer turns of wire than typical passive pickups. This means less inductance and capacitance, and thus a wider and more even frequency response. It also means lower signal level.

Alembic preamps thus are designed to have more gain than preamps designed for more typical, conventional pickups. If your bass has an aftermarket preamp in it, it probably doesn't have nearly enough gain for the pickups.

The higher gain (without higher noise, not easy to achieve) is half of the Alembic innovation. The other half is the tone-shaping capability of the low-pass filter, found on most (although not all) Alembics. Think of this as "sculpting" the wideband signal from the pickups.

I think you'd get the most out of your bass by installing a proper Alembic preamp: volume, pan, filter, 3-position Q switch. (Watch me spend your money  )

[Artgeckko]

Thanks songdog,

That makes complete sense, and no worries spending my money with free advice. 
However, that transaction will have to wait...
Kinda feels inevitable, as does a possible refinishing of the bass, but thats still down the road.
Included this weekends picture updates and progress.
Any suggestions or tips greatly appreciated. 
especially for what the electronics  that are on it.
The plastic insert( maybe epoxy?) for the rear control hole is really interesting.
That part of the control cavity seems to have layered on the inside pocket as well.
On the positive side, the crack which is evident on the surface between control knobs doest appear to go all the way through, so hopefully thats stable...maybe why the epoxy was used.
Did replace the woods screws and the old inserts for the cavity cover as well...the threads on old inserts were all stripped out from oversize wood screws.
Going to do same with wood screws covering truss rod cover.
Received the PU screws from Alembic...Wow even that was packed and wrapped beautifully.  Quality control from Alembic is amazing.
On the nut, Im going to replace the flat brass piece under the nut with a thicker brass piece, to hopefully compensate for the nut being filed too low on E/A strings, seem to have to raise B, D, and G as well for .22mm to maybe that will help out. 
Read about that on another thread( maybe JimmyJ)...smart ideas on this site.
Hope you are all having a great weekend. Thanks for the encouragement and tips!
Heres some picts...

[Artgeckko]

back plate with machine screw inserts.  Back plate will be replaced with piece of brass in future.  original has an errant hole that doesnt correspond to hole...looks like a mistake

[JimmyJ]

You're making some fine progress there! 

I believe I've found your electronics package - or a current version of it:
https://www.thomannmusic.com/glockenklang_2band_electronic.htm
https://www.glockenklang.de/en/products/bass_systems/onboard_2-band.htm

While I'm glad to see you still have your original pickups ... I suspect what songdog said above about the impedance is likely the cause of your low output levels.  Also note that the push-pull switch on the installed rig is active/passive so that's worth trying the next time you have it all together.  Alembic uses connectors for every component to make it all serviceable but your pickup wires have been soldered into this system.    So if / when you eventually get an original electronics package you will also need to reinstall connectors on the pickup leads.

Re the nut: Again, the nut is held UP by the outer two screws and only held in place by the center one.  So you should have plenty of room to raise it far enough to get your action set without needing any additional shimming or replacement of the flat brass piece.  You see what I mean?  Loosen the center bolt, then turn the outer bolts clockwise to raise the nut to the height you need, then gently snug down the center bolt.  If the result makes some strings too high then you need to cut down those slots. 

When I needed to adjust the individual slots on a nut and bridge I removed these pieces from the bass and mounted them on a piece of wood so I could do the filing without damaging the instrument.  I used a cardboard template of a 12" radius as a guide and tried to get the bottom of the slots to match.  It worked out pretty good!  I can tell you more details about that if you get into it at some point.

Keep going!

Jimmy J

[Artgeckko]

Wow!
Thank you JimmyJ
The vast amount of knowledge you guys have is amazing and so welcome!
Not sure how you found this site and the preamp, but that looks exactly like the hardware I have.
Well, I guess in the future I will be investing in a new alembic preamp and pots for this bass. 
I completely agree with the low output deduction, and this is clearly the smoking gun.
Bummer...in string of bummers. It doesn't take much to keep instruments in great shape for a lifetime . especially with how well Alembics are engineered.
Again, not sure if the seller was aware how much poor modification this bass has had done to it.
Not really what I was expected, but I'm in it now, and determined to make it as good as I can make it.
With all the help in this club, I feel very confident it'll get there.
The nut is a trickier issue. 
I am not sure why, but getting the nut height to be correct(without more filing) has been complicated.
Now that I get how the nut was designed( the whole assembly) i was concerned that the same poor work that has been done on this bass has been done to the neck / nut. ( the nut, which is a complicated piece to replace with the three recessed screws) then filing to proper depth...
Main issue are the E/A string. Could raise the nut on the side to get proper height for B, D, G, but getting the E/A to same height.(22mm) resulted in B, D, G being to high and seemed excessive, and not correct in approach.  The flat .064 approx original brass piece was fairly bent, and being that the insert was stripped out of the neck completely, I experimented with A) adding a flat piece of .032 brass underneath .064 original, and B) replacing the whole flat piece assembly with a .090 flat piece of brass.  the latter resulting in 1st fret clearance of just  under .22 feeler gauge under E/A, and by slight raising B /G adjusting screw, seemed to produce a somewhat uniform .22-.23mm clearance.
This along with  making the new hole on back plate was for proof of concept idea.
Th nut assembly as a whole for me is now 2 piece bass, and the insert that screws on bottom to keep together.  It is a very small diameter insert.  threads far smaller than 6-32/6-40. For now i will leave as is.  i feel fortunate considering how many inserts have been bent, stripped, or downright chewed up with a wood screw...
Ugh.
Fairly sure, I will  tear this bass down to just the wood and begin repairing some poor wood finish and refinishing this entire bass.
Think thats when I'll be completely satisfied with the condition of this bass.
Any thoughts on the rear hole plastic insert/Epoxy?  Weird right?
Currently the bass is all back together,  for fear of losing parts, and just to keep it together.
Going to pick up brass screws for truss rod cover.  btw, truss rod is has basically no tension on it currently for proper relief.  when I received it, it was cranked tight, and under far too much pressure..headstock crack made possible??
Quite a journey. 
Thank you all for the the informed guidance and confidence!
Will update soon!



   

[JimmyJ]

Hey Ed,

We're sorry that you've found yourself in a much deeper project than you had bargained for when you bought this bass.  We hope you have the patients to see it through, get it set up as you like, and make some MUSIC with it.

I think Glockenklang amps and electronics are fairly well thought of so whoever did the swap originally was trying to do a good thing.  They clearly put some time and effort into it.  As to why ... that's anybody's guess.  Maybe the rest of their collection all had this setup and they did it for consistency, who knows?  But be sure you try the push-pull switch the next time you get it to that stage of assembly because the "active" circuit might have a more usable output.  You could also consider getting a small booster pedal to give the output level more gas - if that's even necessary.  Just an idea so you can get to playing the bass instead of waiting for parts and mods and spending a bundle of $$.  Seriously, you should not feel obligated to return the bass to "original" specs.  The point is to play the instrument.  You might dig it with the current electronics package and there's absolutely no shame in leaving it like that if it works for you.

The nut:  Don't let the idea of doing some filing put you off, it's not that difficult.  More pics attached below.  (Are you getting tired of this yet?  ) The first picture is your nut and the slots on the fret side clearly don't comply with the correct radius. 

Then from when I was working on mine; another example of the 12" radius (here showing the top to the strings which essentially follows the same curve as the bottoms because of the taper of the individual gauges).  And my homemade E-string fret file which is simply a piece of a string mounted on a chunk of wood.  I removed the main part of the nut from the bass and mounted it on a piece of wood to work on it.  Then I was able to cut the E-string slot down by aggressively scrubbing this actual E-string back and forth until the slot was the right depth.  Slightly angling down towards what would be the tuner side of the nut while checking the depth of the slot on the frets side with my cardboard radius gauge to reach the goal.  The bonus of using an actual string is that the resulting slot is perfect fit.  I do own some nut files which certainly make the job go faster and if you were starting with a blank nut you'd need 'em.  (Stewmac is a good source).  But the files I have were a little off my string diameters so my funky method worked best for me on the larger strings.  Tougher with the G and D because to go deeper than the surface you need to use a string like a coping saw.  (Might have an idea for a new tool here....)

Anyway, I encourage you to give that a try to get your slots to be closer to the correct radius.  Then you can raise the nut as a whole until you have the 1st fret clearance you prefer.  People don't always realize what a big impact the nut has on the entire action.  A little high there makes the string a little high over the entire fingerboard.  So it's an important thing to get that detail setup as you like it.

Re your extra backplate hole.  I say, who cares?  The cover is secure and correctly mounted so the extra hole simply adds character.   

i'm more curious about what looks like an insert in the hole below the 1/4" jack.  What's up with that?  I thought all the mounting holes had been enlarged but that appears to have been made smaller with some kind of insert?  Huh...

Jimmy J

[Artgeckko]

Hello JimmyJ,

Again, your knowledge is awe inspiring. 
Love the info never tire of it.  Learning is a good thing!
Agreed, the point is to play the bass, which I have, but I was thinking it would be closer to a true Alembic sound and experience...
Since that ship has sailed, my hopes are to restore the bass to as close to that experience as possible, as gently as possible.
Great point regarding the nut radius.   
I assume that these basses all have a 12" fretboard radius?  That would certainly address the disparity in issue. 
I have a radius gauge that I can profile the front of the nut for reference, and go from there.
So far my messing around with the bass is to address the problem areas and develop a plan, budget, and hopefully learn as much as I can about these beautiful instruments, which like many, is a bucket list item for this bass player.
Regarding the back plate, I agree, I say the same thing when I get my hair cut...I don't see the back!  LOL

I was told that his dad was the original, sole owner, purchased new in NYC, and the only thing changed was the knobs. 
Thinking his knowledge of this bass was less than spot on?
I'm thinking possibly a few owners, each added a little fun to it (The epoxy hole, insert thing, )
Hopefully, Mica will be able to find a record of it. 
Maybe what he said is all true, and intentions were sound, but seems like a whole lot of disregard for proper maintenance, but then again it is almost 40 years old.  I'm sure I don't look like I did 40 years ago!
Thank you again.
CU of insert for truss rod cover...Kind of destroyed..
E

 

[JimmyJ]

Sorry, I tend to go on and on.  Not because I'm smart but because I've been playing Alembics exclusively since 1975 (wow, I am ancient) so I've gotten to know the hardware.

I've been on Series basses though so I'm not sure the 12" radius is the same for all models.  Try your radius gauge on the fingerboard or a fret.

I'm also not a wood repair guy but I'm sure there is a method to fix the inserts for the truss rod cover.  Drill out, insert plug, start over with new threaded insert?  Maybe not that complicated.  There are some very talented instrument repair folks in here so maybe some will chime in.  You may also want to start another thread under "troubleshooting" because we're over here in "Serial Number..."

And I'm sorry but I have to mention the pickup screws again ... which are meant to be one above and one below per side with the visible heads in opposite corners.  I think you know this already so maybe this latest pic was from before?

OK, I'll step away from the laptop now.

Jimmy J

[Artgeckko]

Troubleshooting...Good point, apologies to moderators.
Will jump over. 
Thanks for the pick up reminder.
Will adjust.
Contacted Alembic regarding electronics...See what they say.
Will try to utilize the 4 existing pot holes for new electronics, and maybe drill a 5th for switch.
In the meantime,  gonna play it for a bit, then break it down and sand it and refinish.
Have work slowdown coming because of dual striking unions, so time off is coming.
Will continue regarding radius on troubleshooting forum.
E