Alembic Vs Fernandez

[Mlazarus]

One of you mention in the last post that a picture of an Alembic series 1 "Has Fernandez written all over it" Well the Head stock was not showing. Have any of you seen and played one?
What is the comparison. Fernandez did a pretty good job. I would like to play one, but i wound buy one. Only series 1.

[edwardofhuncote]

Hey Michael, I think you might be reading something that wasn't there man. There are some pretty sharp eyes around here. Adriaan just posed the question, because he likely saw what I did, a Standard Point shaped body, with odd looking zebrawood, on a lighter wood core, and rosewood fingerboard. The odd non-Alembic pickups were another clue that might be a Fernandes, a copy of an Alembic bass made so close that quite a few folks have been tricked. We don't know without seeing more, but as I said the hallmarks were there. It might be the real deal and we're both fulla sugar too. It was hard to say from that picture, but the antenna go up when we see these things, just because... they have a way of showing up here later with Alembic logos and unsuspecting victims.


There are dozens of threads on them here, and opinions vary from they're pretty good to outright thievery of intellectual property. Fernandes also made other models that did not copy Alembic body designs.

Search for Masterhand. Or Fernandes. (make sure you use an s, not a z)

I have not owned one, or played one, but I know of at least two other Club Members here who do. Three, counting a cat who doesn't hang around here anymore. I'd like to play one, just to say I had.

[edwardofhuncote]

Here ya' go. This guy is selling a FAB-180, and a Masterhand 110.


https://reverb.com/item/53623663-fernandes-ab180-extremely-rare-vg-conditions-original-blue-ps-5-power-supply-cables-and-ohc


https://reverb.com/item/53624763-1979-fernandes-master-hand-bass-mhb-110-extremely-rare-good-conditions-convertible-hard-case


See where that first one might cause some confusion?

[flavofive]

I'm happy to say you can add me to the list of Fernandes FAB-170 owners.  I've been waiting for one in original condition to come up for sale for a long time, and finally got the opportunity to purchase one.  (It shipped from Greenland, of all places!)

I have not yet owned an Alembic Series 1 or Series 2 myself, but I can certainly say that construction-wise, it looks like essentially an exact copy, just with walnut (I think) instead of purpleheart as the neck stringers.  As far as the electronics, I did map out the entire FAB-170 circuit into a schematic and LTSpice circuit simulation, and I really wouldn't be surprised if it is also an exact copy.  It would actually be weirder if Fernandes went to the effort to copy the entire construction, but for some reason DIDN'T bother with the electronics/pickups.  The circuit appears to have the same general components (e.g. 5 opamps, 6 transistors, same potentiometer and switch configuration, at least some of the same resistor values based on what I can make out, etc.).  I even followed Alembic's calibration procedure for noise cancellation and gain adjustment, since any Fernandes-specific instructions are long gone, and it worked exactly the same.  Plus I built a power supply exactly like an Alembic DS5 because the original Fernandes one was missing, and the 5-pin connector was completely compatible.  The only difference is that its opamps run on a max of +/-15V (I think) instead of +/- ~20V like a Series 1.  So that it is one difference, although it's a headroom difference rather than a sound difference.

I've read several people say things like "I played one once, I admit the construction is a very good copy, but the sound didn't even come close to a real Series 1."  Again, I haven't done an A/B test, but I am very curious if they really do sound any different at all.  The best I can do is compare it to recordings.  I did this with some 1970s Parliament/Funkadelic tracks that were definitely recorded with a Series 1.  It sounds the same to me.  Any differences could be easily down to different strings, different setup, my poor technique  , etc.

Overall - I'm definitely not saying it was an ethical thing for Fernandes to do.  Alembic did all of the research, design, manufacturing and marketing to invent the Series 1, and any praise that I have for the instrument's sound and construction truly goes to Alembic.  But just as a historical curiosity, it's crazy how much effort Fernandes obviously put into copying such a luxury, specialty instrument.  Like imagine if Kia suddenly released an identical knockoff of a Lamborghini, and just pretended it was a normal addition to their regular car line.   

[gtrguy]

My experience is with the Fernandes FAG guitar copy of a series one. I think the Fernandes circuit, though similar to an Alembic but with some changes, is designed to run on 9 volts even though they take 2 9v batteries. Some of the electrical components used were not nearly as good as Alembic, but were probably what was available in Japan.  I especially do not like the trimmers for adjusting things on the circuit board they used, as they were way cheaper parts. You can use an Alembic power supply on the Fernandes, but it runs somewhat hot for the IC chips. Body and hardware construction is very similar, though Fernandes does not have the same attention to detail.


Personally I think the clean sound of the guitar is too sterile. Long ago I was working on a '78 Fender Strat and removed the Carvin pickups the owner had installed and put the originals back on. I measured the ohms on the Carvins and all 3 were within a tiny tiny fraction of each other. The Carvins had perfect windings too. The stock Fender PUPs were all over the place compared to each other and scatter wound. However, the Fender PUPs sounded amazing while the Carvins sounded lifeless!


Long boring story short: I learned that vintage electric guitars often sound great because of the human foibles of the folks who made them. This also means there are some real dogs out there too. I had a friend with a 69 Strat he bought new that always sounded always crap. I knew a music store owner with an original '59 Les Paul that he said did not sound good. I had a 71 Tele I bought new that did not sound like anything special either. All this is entirely subjective of course.


As far as bass goes, I think that high fidelity is a great thing!

[Mlazarus]

Imitating one's voice if flatter, but when it comes to intellectual propery, things can get worrisome. I guess Alembis is secure enough to not worry. They know they dont make FOOLS GOLD. Lol.

[keith_h]

David what are the IC part numbers on the Fernandes? The picture isn't clear enough for me to read but is what would tell us a lot about the quality of components.

One of them appears it might be a 4558 chip which is a decent op amp but is not as low noise as the NE5534 used in some (many, all, ?) Alembics.

I used a similar chip the NE5532 when I built a preamp into my Jazz Bass. I did some chip swapping with various MC4558 chips and there was an audible difference in the quality with not just the NE5532 but between the different MC4558 chips as well.

[flavofive]

Keith, you're right, in my FAB-170 the opamps are Texas Instruments (TI) RC4558P.  I have seen at least one other FAB/Masterhand with Panasonic AN6552, so there is some variation.

In Alembic Series 1 / Series 2 instruments, I have seen both TI NE5532AP and NE5532AN chips.  You're right that they are lower noise than the RC4558P; they're all definitely down in the "low noise" range for opamps, but the NE5532s are extra-low.  I might add IC sockets to mine to make it easier to try different opamps; I could probably find a dual opamp that's even better than what's in there now.

That said, I think up until ~1980, the Series instruments used a completely different surface-mount opamp IC, so it depends on the vintage.  I think it's a Harris Semiconductor HA9-911-5, but there seem to be no datasheets for it via Google search, unfortunately.  Photo example:

[gtrguy]

Yes, they are 4558 chips. An OK chip in it's day and used in lots of gear. My trusty old Tascam tape recorders use a lot of them. I believe they do consume way less battery power in a bass or guitar. If I remember right, I did add the sockets to the Ferbic board.

The Fernandes instruments are nice, but do not sound like an Alembic.

BTW, The wonderful Alembic F-2B is a very close copy of the preamp section in a Fender amp (Fender Showman?), which they gladly mention.

[matbard]

F-2B = Fender Dual (Showman) Blackface

[gtrguy]

Mica mentions somewhere in the forum what the original surface mount chips are. I think she also says they are no longer available and long gone.

I'll have to look for some NE5532 chips and try them out in my Ferbic. Various chips have various tolerances for power supplied to them and they also consume more or less power (think dead batteries). My Stingray and Fender Precision Deluxe rarely need new batteries, which is nice.

[jazzyvee]

I do have a stash of these chips if anyone is in need of any, assuming they are the same as the one shown above. I have no idea what they are worth.
https://club.alembic.com/index.php?topic=26122.30

[Mlazarus]

Notice the 5534 op amps in my 82' series 1. Is the 5534 better than the 5532?

[JimmyJ]

Jazzyvee,

Those are rare OEM chips which aren't made anymore but were used on early 70's Series instruments. In true Alembic style, they were the greatest available components at that time - likely a "miil-spec" version of our current opamps.  Not easy to solder in place though!  I wouldn't be surprised if Mica offered to buy those from you! 

I believe the 5532 is a dual opamp and the 5534 is single channel.  So on our preamp boards each channel (3 inputs for B, H and T coils, and two outputs for bass and treble out) has their own opamp chip.  The Fernandes board has a different configuration obviously because there aren't as many chips.  And I believe the 4558 is also a "dual" so they must be using it in a different way.

Jimmy J

[keith_h]

Notice the 5534 op amps in my 82' series 1. Is the 5534 better than the 5532?

I wouldn't say one is better than the other. They are not interchangeable. The 5532 is a dual op-amp where the 5534 is a single. The 5532 is internally compensated where the 5534 is externally compensated. There are other electrical and pinout differences.

The thing to keep in mind is an engineer designs their circuit with a particular chip in mind. They know what results they are expecting and design towards that goal. In the case of Alembic I feel they design their circuits to sound like an Alembic regardless of the op-amp and other components they will be using in the circuit. So in the end it isn't the question of is one chip better than another but does the instrument still sound and play like an Alembic.

I do wonder if there is a difference between the original chips and those manufactured today. While they are functionally the same electrically the manufacturing processes have changed such that they aren't built the same way which might have an effect on how they sound to the human ear. But that is a conversation for another thread.