How good do you think your internal clock really is?

[glocke]

Coming to find out mine isn't as good as I thought it was. 


I've been spending more and more time with a metronome lately after getting some feedback from some guys in the jazz world regarding my playing.  One group says I seemed to drag things at times, another group says that it seems like I arrived at the 1 on some tunes sooner than I should be (in other words I was rushing).


As a result I've started using a metronome more often..I've always used one but lately am using it more and one of the things I've been doing is putting it on a slow tempo (60 bpm or slower)  with the click on either 1 and 3 or just 1 (eventually I'll get to every other 1),  and playing quarter notes and than eighth notes on that. 


Geez louise...it's a painful exercise as it shows exactly how correct those guys were in criticizing me.  Im fine for a couple of measures but than start missing the beat entirely by what seems like 16th note or even eighth note.


At faster tempos Im doing ok I think, but slowed down it shows how far off I really can be.
 
In the rock/jamband stuff I've been doing the past decade or so I've played with musicians of different skillsets.  Some great, some not so great, and usually a mix of the two in the same band so there was at times a certain level of "sloppiness" that was deemed acceptable.   

[David Houck]

I've recently been experimenting with a looper, and in improvising on top of a repeating pattern it's obvious that my timing needs lots of practice.  But then just using the looper itself is going take a lot of practice.

[5a quilt top]

My internal clock is OK and I do not personally know anyone, myself included, who couldn't benefit / improve from regular practice sessions with a metronome.


[/size]I've found that when I play with people who have poor meter, the worse my meter becomes and vice versa, so working with a metronome is good way to measure how far I'm drifting.


[/size]Unfortunately, some people have no hope, like the one meter-challenged person I used to play with who actually had the audacity to say "Yeah I've tried practicing with metronomes, they don't work for me. They're all inaccurate. When I play along with them, they're either too fast or too slow compared to what I'm playing."

[hankster]

My clock is good - but when I’m sight reading it suffers a bit. I worked with a drummer for several years whose teacher used to take him for long walks and leave a metronome running - and softly clap perfect time for the whole duration of the walk and come back still in sync with the metronome. He thought those lessons were more valuable than all the technique he was taught.

For me the issue is subdivision of the beat. Who knew there could be so much room between 1 and 2?!

[hieronymous]

I think that listening is also involved - presumably when you come in early it's when others are playing as well. Sounds like the bands you're playing with that are noticing the time discrepancies are good players so perfect people to play with - and listen to!

Unfortunately, some people have no hope, like the one meter-challenged person I used to play with who actually had the audacity to say "Yeah I've tried practicing with metronomes, they don't work for me. They're all inaccurate. When I play along with them, they're either too fast or too slow compared to what I'm playing."

WOW! I played with a drummer who didn't want to play with a metronome because he didn't want it to sound "mechanical" or "too perfect" - as if he could play that well! Nothing bugs me more than a drummer that rushes on fills - that means you aren't feeling the pulse of the music. But this guy takes the cake - the metronome is inaccurate! 

[glocke]

I think that listening is also involved - presumably when you come in early it's when others are playing as well. Sounds like the bands you're playing with that are noticing the time discrepancies are good players so perfect people to play with - and listen to!

They are basically jazz instructors...Im taking two different ensemble workshops.  One in Manhattan and one locally.  It's interesting to hear the feedback I get from the two separate places.  The one in Manhattan says I tend to drag (and considering these are from 7-9 pm after I've been up since three a.m. or so thats not surprising as my ass dragging by the time i get up there).  The other one is local to me and thats the guy that says I'm coming in early, slightly ahead of the beat.

Regardless, slowing down things to 60 bpm and a single click really shows my deficiencies, and i think they stand out more in this genre because these guys are themselves really good...Good as in the instructors in Manhattan have not only mastered their primary instrument (in this case sax), but are also proficient on drums/piano and bass...(they are actually scary good)

Unfortunately, some people have no hope, like the one meter-challenged person I used to play with who actually had the audacity to say "Yeah I've tried practicing with metronomes, they don't work for me. They're all inaccurate. When I play along with them, they're either too fast or too slow compared to what I'm playing."

WOW! I played with a drummer who didn't want to play with a metronome because he didn't want it to sound "mechanical" or "too perfect" - as if he could play that well! Nothing bugs me more than a drummer that rushes on fills - that means you aren't feeling the pulse of the music. But this guy takes the cake - the metronome is inaccurate! 
[/quote]

I've known a few of those guys.  Most people I know in the rock/jam circles I run in don't use metronomes at all...I've suggested their use to some and get looked at like i have two heads.

[rv_bass]

I do the metronome on beats 1&3, then just 1 or just 4, they are great exercises to help internalize the beat!  I like the walking exercise with a metronome idea.  I walk to and from work each day, usually with the beat of a tune I my head.  I’ll have to try the metronome walking idea with earbuds.

[glocke]

My clock is good - but when I’m sight reading it suffers a bit. I worked with a drummer for several years whose teacher used to take him for long walks and leave a metronome running - and softly clap perfect time for the whole duration of the walk and come back still in sync with the metronome. He thought those lessons were more valuable than all the technique he was taught.

For me the issue is subdivision of the beat. Who knew there could be so much room between 1 and 2?!

Yeah, the sax guy thats the instructor at the NYJA workshop suggested similar exercises, even walking with the metronome set on two and four and matching your footsteps to that.

Agree on the subdivision.  I've always been a poor soloist...I think I probably shine better as a support player but I've been working on my soloing skills over jazz tunes.  I am getting better I think, but when I first started revisiting this stuff I'd fire off a flurry of notes and than be like "wait, theres still two beats left in this measure?"

[garyhead]

I think my timing is / was pretty good.  A Balkan band I was in used to do a tune in 25/8...yes, 25/8.  A drummer and I used to do a live shtick kind of a call and response in time....it would eventually devolve into the drummer (playing a Dumbek) trying to throw me off during his bit.....I always felt the internal clock and I do not recall a single missed entrance.....after the whole band came back in (about 12 more instrumentalists) they would leave the stage in a kind of Conga line and go into the audience....I was left alone on the stage as I was tethered to my amp.  GAWD! THAT was hard especially when they were in the back of the crowd and the delay was excruciating......then the trick was for them to return on stage "in-time".....it worked.....The first time the band leader did it....he didn't tell me.  That was 20 odd years ago....it would be fun to try it now in my dotage.  I used to practice with a metronome just because I didn't own a drum machine...

[pauldo]

Same here.
In an early band the guitarist recommended I work with a metronome... I took it personal, but when the metronome and myself were alone it was evident that my timing wasn’t where it should be.

Locking into and learning the discipline of following a metronome then opens one up to being able to proficiently play ahead or behind the beat to create different musical tensions (when appropriate).

For me intentionally rushing the beat is easy, dragging it takes a strong focus.  Roger Waters often plays behind the beat and in past bands where we played Pink Floyd covers I was surprised at how much discipline was required to drag.  At the same time it was exhilarating to have that feel fit so nicely.

[edwin]

I've been using metronomes (and drum machines just for fun) for decades. One thing that was a revelation back in the 90s was to work with Joaquin des Pres' Bass Fitness and discover how much discrepancy there was between my different fingers. Things felt smooth and even, but once I dug in, I discovered that some fingers just moved faster than others. I need to go back to that.

I used to be right on in general, but then a year or so after I turned 40, something happened and it's gotten harder to stay perfectly within in the groove. I've also developed problems with my memory. I still remember the first time these difficulties manifested. I got off stage and the singer and drummer both said "Hey, you missed a note!" Since then, I've missed a lot of notes and my reputation for perfection is gone, but I used to have it together pretty well. I'm not sure of the underlying cause....

OK, back to the metronome!

[keith_h]

I have used a metronome off an on over the years. I used one quite a bit when I first started playing bass. My first bass instructor was a well known Jazz musician and teacher in the Chicago area who was very strong on the basics like meter and intonation. In hindsight I learned a lot from him but tell that to a 12 year old who just wants to learn to play Smoke on the Water.   

 Not that the drummers mentioned here are in the same class (or maybe they are) but Neil Peart has talked about using click tracks and how they helped him develop his skills as he learned to play against it. He also says after many years of click tracks he felt his playing became too stiff so he took lessons from Freddie Gruber and Peter Erskine to learn how to loosen up and improvise more.

[David Houck]

... Neil Peart .. says after many years of click tracks he felt his playing became too stiff so he took lessons .. to learn how to loosen up ...

I suppose it depends on what one's intention is with the music they play, but it does seem to me that when a band plays to a click track or a looper, the music doesn't breathe.

That said, for what I do, it does seem useful that I learn to use a looper.

[peoplechipper]

I think mine is good...I used to play guitar in a band that had songs in 7/4 and 9/8 and stuff; when ya can't tap your foot to it the internal clock better be working! I'm also comfortable swinging within the beat and letting it flow and breathe, which is good since I am now bass and vocals which is way beyond what I thought I was capable of...

That said, I should dig out my metronome and find out how much I've been deluding myself...Tony

[bigredbass]

I was a piano student as a kid, and I figure I've spent several years in aggregate locked in combat with that ticking monster.  As a result, my internal clock is about even with the Naval Observatory.  It bothers me, as I hear time slipping or speeding up the way folks with perfect pitch are driven crazy by how out of tune most of the world is.

The short test:  Get a clock on the wall, your watch, anything with a second hand.  Watch the second hand, and count along, 'one, two, three . . . ',  the first twenty or thirty seconds.  Then turn your eyes away and keep counting.  When you get to '56, 57, 58 . . . . ' look back and see if you're still in sync.  This can make some folks crazy, so consider yourself warned !