Author Topic: Setups and Shipping  (Read 385 times)

sfnic

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« Reply #15 on: May 24, 2005, 04:17:53 PM »
Thanks, guys!  In that case, I'll keep thinking out loud...
 
Alas, I'm woefully under-read on the advances in viol-family acoustics.  So I haven't come across Dr. Hutchins' work yet.  I've got enough physics of acoustics theory in my head to get by, from years of doing live sound and tuning rooms and so forth, coupled with a certain amount of basic electronic and mechanical engineering chops.  So I can read Siminoff's stuff on tuning the air chamber on a mandolin, and can sorta follow Doc Kasha's stuff with Richard Schneider on structural impedence and boundary effects, but still get lost in the more academic approaches.
 
As to using the SF-2 to mimic plate resonance peaks, well, yeah it can be done to a degree.  The downside is that you have virtually zero ability to control the phase response of the filter, other than by being aware of the basics of a state variable filter.
 
(The high-pass and band-pass outputs are 180 degrees out of phase to each other, and each is 90 degrees out from ther bandpass output.  Then they're summed for the combined output and, often, mixed wet/dry with the original signal which may or may not be 180 degrees out of phase with the bandpass pole.)
 
And, even being able to discern the phase/amplitude response relationship in the SF-2, you have no way of measuring (or simulating) the same relationships in an instrument or environment you're trying to model.
 
Ultimately, what the response peaks represent is a combination of the actual generated tone comb-filtered through the plate and cavity amplitude and phase resonances of the environment.
 
All of which is why DSP processing of audio signals--with the intent of simulating various amps, cabinets, instruments, etc.--has been so difficult until recently.  These days, the approach is to make reference recordings of the source item, then use advanced DSP techniques to discover the phase and amplitude structure.  Then use that as a baseline with which to adapt the model's signal attributes to match.
 
Fortunately, the human ear is a much more sensitive measurement instrument than it's given credit for, and with some practice, it's quite possible to get close enough in modeling to achieve satisfactory results.  The big hurdle in learning how to do that kind of aural modeling, though, is to gain an understanding of how phase changes affect what you hear.  One easy way to do that is to run one channel of a stereo through a phase shifter pedal that's had the sweep function disabled.  Listen, then change the phase shift and keep listening.  Change it again.  You'll get to the point where you recognize the characteristic sounds of a pair of tones at an identical pitch, but with varying degrees of phase delay between them.
 
Once you can recognize the type of sound of a phase differential, you'll be able to hear it buried in the complex signals you're working with with the SF-2.  So you'll have a better idea of what to push or pull, frequency and amplitude-wise, to get closer to the tone and timbre you want to mimic.
 
It gets back to one of the things Mike Tobias showed me:  he had tuned a solid-body bass to D.  He could rap the upper horn and get a very clear tone.  He could also rap the lower body, near the controls, and get the exact same tone.  But when we put it up on the scope, we found that each zone was 90 degrees out of phase with each other.  Rap the horn, and the body zone resonated in D, but 90 degrees forward-shifted.  Rap the body, and the horn was 90 degrees behind.
 
Turns out that was pretty much the ideal, for that particular bass design.  He had done one earlier where he managed to get the zones in phase, and of course the bass simply wolfed out at that resonance.  He realized that where you plucked the string determined which zone has precedence, and so determined the real-time phase angle of the complex signal.  It led him to some interesting experiments with pickup placement.  Unfortunately, he didn't have any way of measuring the comb-filter effect the pups had in interaction with the string, at any given note.  So it was back to tuning by ear, but with a better inate understanding of how a given change in design would change the tone.

sfnic

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« Reply #16 on: May 24, 2005, 04:22:37 PM »
Oh, and a side note:  these phase/amplitude relationships are one main reason why time alignment of loudspeakers involves a lot more than merely lining up the voice coils.  Ron W seems to have a supernatural understanding of these elements.  Of course, he cut his teeth designing magnetic tape heads for Ampex, way back when.  Many hundreds and hundreds of hours of aligning 16-track and video record heads to minimize inter-channel phase shifts will train the ear...

sfnic

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« Reply #17 on: May 24, 2005, 04:24:35 PM »
...Of course, it's possible to LOSE the ability to discern phase/amplitude relationships, after listening to Dark Star at live volume for the six thousandth time...

bigredbass

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« Reply #18 on: May 25, 2005, 11:08:19 AM »
Nic:
 
Don't EVER quit thinking out loud for us !  You have to remember that some of us here gravitated to ALEMBICs because we have a thirst for the straight technical truth.  And I also truly believe that Ron must have the ears and mind of someone that only comes along once in a very great while, and should easily be included in that very short list of giants like Les Paul, Leo Fender, Randall Smith, etc.
 
Thank You.
 
J o e y

sfnic

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« Reply #19 on: May 26, 2005, 02:44:11 PM »
Well, I have been blessed by being in the right place at the right time, to learn from some of the finest and most innovative people to ever grace the industry.
 
It's odd, though.  I had essentially left the instrument production community, years ago.  My day job (computer security industry technical writer) was engrossing and massively time-consuming.  I hadn't though about instrument design or electronics or woodworking or audio physics for, literally, 15 years or so.  When Stars Guitars shut down and we sold off our PA company, I pretty much turned my back on the whole deal.
 
So, there I was at 48 years old, happily chatting with a friend who's a network design guru.  He mentions that he builds acoustic guitars.  I say, yeah, I used to do guitar work, way back when.
 
One thing leads to another, and I'm just about to turn 50, and am in the middle of a full-blown mid-life crisis and am completely resurrecting my involvement in this entire circus.  (My wife says, as long as it doesn't involve Ferraris and/or groupies, it's fine.)
 
So I've been indulging in a crash course in re-learning what I used to know, and filling in all the gaps that I never bothered to worry about back then.  Posting here in the Club has been a fantastic aid for me to re-organize my personal knowledgebank and recharge my own creative juices.
 
It's also put me back in touch with some superb people I hadn't really known very well, but really respected and, it turns out, missed a great deal.  When I dropped by the factory a few weeks ago, I was reminded of how much raw fun it is to talk with Ron about some nice, deep technicalities.  I reconnected with Susan's wicked sense of humor, and have been delighted at how her inate artistry has grown and matured over the years.
 
And Mica.  What can I say?  I wish I could have been around, at least from time to time, to watch her grow up.  I like to think I cover a broad range of subjects in my lutherie-centric interests; Mica has been living on the cusp between 22nd-century state-of-the-art electronic design, and 12th-century classical artistic and music instrument design and construction her entire life.  Throw in botanical physics and a thousand other odds-and-ends, and then throw on that she's a shit-hot blues player, as well.  She's a total treasure.
 
So, mega-thanks for indulging me.  :-)
 
nic