Author Topic: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass  (Read 2571 times)

rogertvr

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2005, 03:01:34 PM »
All I have to say is - dealing with wood and dealing with graphite are two TOTALLY different arenas.
 
Why aren't we inundated with graphite instrument manufacturers?  Answer - it's so damn difficult to work with AND to get it right!
 
I am no engineer.  But I have to ask this.
 
Helicopter blades travel in a circular motion. Yes, they have length and yes, they have pitch (is that the correct word?). Any strung instrument has tension throughout the length (or most of the length) of the body - I don't see too many helicopter blades that are anchored at both ends of the blade by a piece of wire with an awful lot of tension in it. Surely we are talking about two completely different applications of graphite here and there is virtually no comparison?

j_gary

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2005, 04:45:59 PM »
Hey Ed, I say go ahead and build one. Other than my Alembics, half the basses I own appear manufactured by drunken pygmies, while sliding down a mountainside in an old Buick. Some of these big name companies don't appear to have a clue how to build an instrument. Doggone helicopter blade probably sounds better than some of them.

beelee

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2005, 04:51:51 PM »
W must have had some communication with JAE 's estate about the Buzzard, some kind of deal must have been made ( you know the saying money talks.....)
 
another quote from Rob Green  prior to Status Buzzard production being stopped  John Entwistle's family gave me permission to keep producing the Status Graphite Buzzard as a tribute to JAE after his passing
 
The SG BB was the last instrument John ever played, It was John's own design...... why stop Status Graphite from making them ? they are such a small company, how could that  compete with W.....K ?  and how many Buzzards would either company sell,  its not like its a extremely popular bass anyway.
 
It just makes no sense to me........
 
(Message edited by beelee on October 21, 2005)

811952

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2005, 06:51:02 PM »
What a discussion.  Unfortunately we will probably never know the full story, even if somebody gets to talk to all parties involved.  I do want to add this, though, in reference to the wood vs. graphite discussion.  If I'm not mistaken, wood is strongest in compression, whereas graphite has the greater strength in tension.  Wood building techniques don't work on graphite, and to a lesser degree vice versa.  I have seen many everyday folk do amazing things with both.  Graphite takes more time to work with, is considerably messier, requires toxic epoxy resins, is considerably more expensive as a raw material and to do the bass thing probably requires an expensive autoclave to get a good cure.  Most of the people I have seen do marvelous work with graphite have been building airplanes and race cars and probably wouldn't have enough hearing left to tell the difference between an Alembic and a bucket even if they were interested in building basses.  I say that if any of you have the time and resources, then you'll probably be able to pop out a lovely and mechanically sound bass of whatever design you choose, especially if you intentionally overbuild it a wee bit.  I do think $5K is not too far out of the ballpark if you've got the time to experiment and have good sourcing for the tools and materials.  If you work in a race car shop, then I bet you could run a far less lucrative graphite bass business on the side without much difficulty.  And as Ed stated, John and Rob likely have already done the hardest part.
 
Flame away!  ;)
 
John

ed_r

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2005, 07:21:00 PM »
I think the Autoclave would be the most expensive part, yeah;)
Graphite is not much different than working with fiberglass, honest. It's epoxy resin in both cases, and it's fiberglass cloth with a weave of some kind  as a basic surface. THe carbon-fiber weave isn't any more or less difficult to work with, it's just more expensive. Well, ok, getting all the air bubbles out of the weave can be really tricky, but if you are going to go with an opaque finish that's not a problem- the gelcoat takes care of that.  But if you're going to make a graphite instrument, showing the weave's the ONLY way to go;)
 
You certainly don't work with wood the way you do with graphite.  
You guys really ought to try playing around with manufacturing processes some time. It's a lot of fun, you will definitely learn something and you POSITIVELY gain a STRONG respect for the people who do it for a living and begin to understand the true value of the products they are making.
 
 
To answer roger's question, the dynamics of a guitar vs a heli disk are way different but the technology and construction for the necks and blades are similar, and the actual movement of the blades and necks are also similar- the blades flex from the center hub, in a bow, just like a neck does, except the neck doesn't get that subjected to it in a fraction of a second and then have 100 percent the opposite force applied in teh next fraction of a second.
 
Ned Steinberger discovered in the mid '70s that a stiff, unmovable neck made from epoxy resins will be acoustically efficient - and sound like crap. It took him a while to understand that the neck of a guitar actually NEEDS to move a bit or the higher frequencies bouncing around will create resonant pockets, ugly-sounding high frequency accents and some downright frightfully harsh tones. So he softened the mix a tiny bit, and by allowing the necks to bend slightly  they sounded a lot more organic. This isn't to say that the necks on his guitars moved with weather changes, though- they were solid as a rock in that regard.
It's the same with a heli blade. You need a certain amount of flex or the first tiome you do a  fast roll at a moderate speed your blades will snap in half. You don't want TOO much flex as that induces latency in control surface response and makes the heli controls feel spongfy and inaccurate. But you need SOME tiny give to it.
In this regard, guitar necks and heli blades are the same. Rick Turner ( that name ought to ring a bell or two here ) uses graphite-reinforced necks on his current line of instruments b3ecause they stiffen the neck up beyond what a normal wood neck can live with, but they still produce amazingly organic, woody, wonderful full sounding tones. It's all in the balance.  
 
Of course, I'm not about to go into the John Entwistle Replica Buzzard business. I'm just saying it's doable with the right approach.

zn_bassman

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #35 on: October 23, 2005, 08:54:35 AM »
Here's what might be the authoritative version of the Buzzard's history: http://www.thewho.net/whotabs/equipment/bass/equip-entwistlegear-86-02.html
 
Excerpts:
 
'The original Buzzard was designed by John and Warwick in 1985, with prototypes and the first models in wood. John then contacted Modulus Graphite, which made two graphite Buzzards. Modulus then manufactured six graphite necks for Warwick for use in John?s Warwick-made basses.'
 
From December 1996 Total Guitar interview
[Regarding the June 1996 Hyde Park Quadrophenia performance] You were playing your Buzzard bass?
?Yeah, it?s a Status Buzzard and I had the two prototypes with me on that gig. It?s completely graphite, a one-piece mould. But the second one caved in on me. They are, or were, absolutely identical in every way; they feel and sound the same, so I had to put a different colour hip shot on each of them so I could tell the difference. It has the same electronics as a normal Buzzard, but they are currently desiging a proper circuit board for it. When they have finished that they are going to repalce the ones in mine. I wanted them to adjust the sweep parametric mid-range EQ on the bass, so that it sounded like a wah when I turned the knob, and it took them a while to get that right.?
 
And here's Warwick's version:
http://www.warwickbass.com/news/37.htm
 
The Ox and The Buzzard: The Early History
By Dale Titus  
 
With the sad and unexpected passing of John Entwistle this summer there has been an understandable interest surrounding the origin of the Buzzard, the bass he has played since 1985. The genesis of the Buzzard has, over time, devolved into somewhat vague or contradictory accounts. To clear the record and get the real story, I sought out the help of Hans Peter Wilfer and Geoff Gould, two gentlemen who were sequentially involved with John Entwistle during the creation of his first Buzzard basses.  
 
Hans Peter Wilfer, the founder of Warwick basses, was approached by John Entwistle to create a special bass for him in 1985. John had some very unique ideas as to how the bass should look and play, so he sat down with Hans Peter and the two of them sketched out the design that the world knows today. Hans Peter came up with the idea of the distinctive hand grip on the lower horn, the stylized headstock and many other design specifics that make the Buzzard such a wonderfully unique bass. Then, after the basic body shape was agreed upon, Hans Peter and John sat in a London nightclub called Maggie's and decided to name the bass the Buzzard. In all honesty, Hans Peter says that many drinks were consumed that night and he cannot remember exactly who thought of the name the Buzzard, but he thinks it was John's idea. In the days that followed, Hans Peter then made a few prototypes for John to play and critique, and the design was further polished. The photo shown below is of one of those early prototypes, which shows an early headstock design. It was after the duo decided on the name Buzzard, that the headstock was changed to more closely resemble the beak of said bird.  
 
After playing the Warwick-made Buzzard for a while, John became curious about the various benefits of graphite necks. He contacted his friend Geoff Gould, who was the President and founder of Modulus Graphite. John had known Geoff for quite some time and the two had worked together before, so he asked Geoff to make him some Buzzard basses with graphite necks, which he did. What John was looking for was a combination of factors, Geoff told me via email. He liked the fact that the neck was relatively impervious to weather changes, since he liked to play with the strings so close to the frets, they were almost laying on top of them. This was quite difficult with a wood neck because it would necessitate constant truss rod adjustments. He also liked the sonic characteristics of the neck because his dynamic playing style, from the soft, deft touches to the thunderous hammering. Modulus Graphite made at least two Buzzard basses for John, which he paid full retail for as a way to support Modulus. It was later that Modulus provided Warwick with six bass necks for them to use in the production of John's personal Buzzard basses.  
 
So, in regards to the first Buzzard basses that were made for John Entwistle, Hans Peter designed the body to John's taste, and the original Buzzard took flight. Geoff and Modulus Graphite made the next few Buzzards for John, and later provided Warwick with graphite necks for John's personal Buzzards. Warwick has built many Buzzard for the world market since the Buzzard's development in 1986. Hans Peter indicates that Warwick will introduce the latest incarnation of his Buzzard in 2003. In more recent years John's personal Buzzards have been made for him by Status, a UK-based graphite composite instrument builder. The fact that at least three different builders have made a Buzzard is probably what has led to some of the misconceptions about its beginnings.

beelee

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #36 on: October 23, 2005, 10:08:05 AM »
Thanks for posting all the buzzard info ZN, I've seen all this before in all my Buzzard searches after finding out from Rob Green that he is no longer allowed to make the bass.
 
In the end it still was John Entwistle's original idea and design not Warwick's, Modulus' or Status Graphite's and John coud afford to have any bass in the world he wanted and the last bass he played was a Buzzard made by Status Graphite. He obviously chose what he thought was the higher quality instrument out of the 3 manufacturers.
 
in the end the small company and the public lose.
 
(Message edited by beelee on October 23, 2005)

ed_r

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #37 on: October 23, 2005, 10:19:00 AM »
Not neccesarily the 'higher quality', but the instrument that fit his stated needs best. Nothing wrogn with the Warwick Buzzards to my mind except maybe the weight. The one on the cover of Bass Culture sure looks sweet. I play with a higher action than John did so neck movement isn't as big a deal with me.

rogertvr

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #38 on: October 23, 2005, 11:14:58 AM »
I can safely say that comparing the quality of my Status Graphite instruments with the (admittedly limited) exposure I've had to Warwick instruments - I wouldn't be spending my ? with Warwick, put it like that!  Well, in fact, I didn't did I!!!!!

zn_bassman

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #39 on: October 23, 2005, 11:18:53 AM »
Status did with the Buzzard what the others couldn't. They made it a light and strong 1-piece graphite instrument and added what are arguably the most versatile electronics in the world (let's not forget that we're on the Alembic site  ;-) ). All one needs to do is listen to John's live performances in '96 (highly processed bassy sound), '97 (less processed trebly sound), and at the Concert for New York (less processed bassy sound) for proof of that versatility. Completely different tones coming out of the same instrument, even taking into consideration the changes in his rig and amount of processing. We have his solo album from '86 (The Rock) and live performances in '89 to compare with - although those had great bass tones, they aren't in the same class as the later (Status) ones.  
 
Quality is a tricky issue, but the ultimate proof is in the sound and playability. The Ox roared his approval of the Status Buzzard for 10 years. That was far longer than he ever stayed with any other instrument. And he took his utterly unique playing style to its highest (perhaps unsurpassable) peak with that very same bass as he approached age 60. Old red wine indeed...
 
It would seem that this whole exercise is just to satisfy the greed of the lawyers, estate executors, and of course W*rw*ck. I wonder if the family either has no real say or was never involved enough to know the dynamics.

rogertvr

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #40 on: October 23, 2005, 11:25:30 AM »
Mica, Susan and I suspect a good few others aren't going to like this comment.
 
But the electronics in my SG Buzzard (and my headless Stealth for that matter) completely blow away the Signature electronics in my Dragon's Wing. That can't even get close. Sorry folks, but it's a fact!

senmen

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #41 on: October 23, 2005, 12:26:59 PM »
Guys,
what shall I say? I am really ashamed by this all.
As for the W. Buzzard: I owned one, a black LE with serial number 3 and I sold it. It had a neck like a hockey stick and there was no chance to have the action as low as I need it.
I have to say that I run the same low action as John did and if you play wooden basses and even with a more than low action you have to live with permanent adjustments. That was also the main reason why John turned to the graphites.
Problem now is that the prices of the remaining Status Buzzard 1s will go up.  
As for me I love the design of the Spyders really much and I play both my Spyder 4 and 8 with my WHO tribute. Soon there will be the Dragon Wing Tears for John also played live as well as another bass that it currently in the make for me, but no Alembic but classy JE.
 
Oliver (Spyderman)

ed_r

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #42 on: October 23, 2005, 02:03:49 PM »
I think he stuck with Alembics for more than ten years too.  
I love a Steinberger bass, and I know I'd love a Status Buzzard. Hopefully Rob will come up with something siomilar , or already haas.  
I seriously don't need my Status Graphite to be a Buzzard, if I want extremely low action and entirely stable neck, body shape isn't going to have all that much effect! I would definitely NOT rule out Status as a bass maker just because they aren't allowed to make a Buzzard any more for whatever reason ( I suspect the state and/or its attorneys more than anyone at Warwick ) .

beelee

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #43 on: October 23, 2005, 03:55:57 PM »
Boy did I start an interesting thread !!     ( for lack of a better description) LOL
 
Yeah I'd love to get a Status Graphite Buzzard bass,  and its really a CRIME as to what has happened.
 
I was planning to get a custom one made, graphite color, front and side LED's, 5 or 8 string maybe even having a tremolo unit put on it.
 
Would I rule out Status Graphite as a bass maker just cause they can't  make the Buzzard anymore NOT A CHANCE, that would be pretty foolish now wouldn't it ?
 
I'm not  really into or have anything against headless basses but their Kingbass Artist looks really nice and I'm also interested in having a custom one made, as I previously said about speaking with Rob Green about both before the Buzzard incident occured.
 
I was attracted to both the Buzzard and Kingbass not just because of who used/designed them, but because I like unique and one of a kind looking instruments and always have.
 
All the basses I've owned & still do were chose for the way they look and I liked the way the played and sounded as I learned more and my tastes changed so did the basses I played.
 
I prefer wood over graphite ( buckeye burl, cocobolo etc look sooo nice !!) but I haven't ruled out playing a bass made of graphite/ graphite neck. I recently found a Modulus Prototype 7 string fretless bass that sounds/plays awesome.
 
I just feel its so wrong for Status Graphite not to be able to make the Buzzard anymore, If John Entwistle was still around this wouldn't have happened, and if it wasn't for him there would be no Buzzard at all.
 
Like I said before the small company and the public lose.
 
nothing personal against W or whomever was responsable for this happening....its just not right.
 
If whoever was responsable for this really thought things out they should have let Status Graphite, Modulus and W continue to make the Buzzard bass and everyone would make out good on the deal.
 
Bruce
 
(Message edited by beelee on October 23, 2005)

ed_r

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Re: John Entwistle Status Graphite Buzzard I Bass
« Reply #44 on: October 23, 2005, 04:34:58 PM »
I want me a Stealth headed 4-string. Yep.