Well, as I pretty much expected, most of my comments don't seem to have registered at all... at least with most of the posters at the site here.
On the other hand, I received several private emails from others who explicitly agreed with what I wrote. I am choosing to post just the most recent, and from an individual I've not corresponded with before, and who I won't name.
Right on the money! I quit hanging at the club for many of the reasons you mentioned, and I am quite grateful that you took the time to post your (our) thoughts there. Let's hope that someday it goes back to being the place we used to enjoy so much. I seriously doubt it will, but it will not change unless little pushes are made on those who seems unable to move themselves. Thanks!
I could post plenty of others, but there wouldn't be any point, and this one illustrates the point just fine.
Isn't the POINT of whatever policies the PTB choose to have to promote harmony and coziness... and NOT JUST to a small self-selected sub-group...? Because THAT'S what the policies here have done. Perhaps those that've stuck around find it cozy and harmonious... but myself and others find it exactly the opposite, and don't come here because of it. From OUR perspective, it's at the least less cozy and harmonious that it used to be, and certainly neither cozy nor harmonious in general.
... Again, my prior comments just don't seem to have registered AT ALL, as, to the extent there have been responses, they indicate a consistent failure to grasp and respond to my primary points -which were quite clear.
Let me try a different approach. The processes we go through to communicate in this forum and in this medium are basically the same as if we were all sitting at a table. Sure there are differences; if we're all actually there we can't speak at once and must give and take, alternate between speaking and listening, and so forth.
But the processes of listening... of evaluating and integrating what others say and of responding, including making efforts to think and choose, and communicate in a natural way and with integrity... there's no difference. At least not for me.
The majority of those I choose to hang with in situations other than work are really cool people who are free of malice, and who speak their minds honestly as I do, and WE do not have any problems with this... ever.
Free speech, and allowing free speech doesn't cause problems... ever. No fooling. What causes problems is people -meaning individuals (meaning specific individuals)- choosing to be malicious, irrational, or both.
In such cases, catering to the malicious and/or irrational by limiting free speech, and depriving everyone (including, most especially and importantly, those who ARE capable of fully utilizing, enjoying, and benefitting from the open/uncensored environment) of the benefits of open/integrity-assured communication... is a SERIOUS logical and tactical error (assuming the objective is to foster an inviting and positive forum).
That it is the right of the PTB to do whatever they want isn't in question.
What I am attempting to point out is that their policies have in fact achieved the opposite of what I'm certain the PURPOSE of the policies almost certainly is: to promote an inviting and positive environment.
Once I or others here have to, to any degree, try and take into account the infinite arbitrary ways in which any views we have may be offensive, and have to assume responsibility for those who may choose to respond irrationally to others stating their thoughts/opinions... such communication becomes a FUNDAMENTALLY different proposition.
Personally I won't deal with such an environment because I reject the whole paradigm as antithetical to integrity. It's my responsibility to speak my mind as I see it and to rationally respond to others doing the same. It's not my responsibility to pre-emptively self-censor myself in ANY way (in what can ONLY be an ultimately futile effort to placate the infinite and arbitrary irrational responses that can/might occur). To do so is undermine ALL communication, whether you realize or not. (And whether you do or don't is a crucial element/characteristic of enlightenment.)
A couple of posts especially illustrate how my points here just don't seem to have registered with some here: in his post #612 edwin says/asks
Masterofmanystrings, I am curious why you feel the need to lay down such a detailed screed to a place which you state is in your rear view mirror. If you are not here, why should we incorporate the standards you seek?
As I thought I made perfectly clear from my first post here, the whole point is WHY myself and others aren't here... and the point being that what I have to say -that myself and others don't come here as often or at all is because of PRECISELY the topic of this thread. The answer to your question has been discussed in considerable and explicit detail, to such an extent that it actually boggles my mind that you ask the question. But it does underscore my point in an explicit and extreme degree.
I also simply can't agree with the whole sympathizing for the moderator thing. First of all, to use a more honest word... censor... myself and others of similar mindset find a censor about as useful and desirable as a diaper-changer. Now if some feel they need such a service, and sypathize with how thankless the job is, I respect their right to that opinion, but for me it's beyond silly.
Moving on, I also found glockes' post #721 to illustrate the evasion of my points: He begins with:
The more I think about it, the more Im surprised this is even being discussed.
I mean seriously, this is first and foremost a MUSIC related forum, why on earth would someone want to bring their possibly controversial views here when there are so many better places to post those things where people go that actually WANT to read stuff like that.
... You're surprised this is being discussed? Wow. I guess it should presumably be assumed that an open/uncensored atmosphere wouldn't/should't even be a consideration. Remarkable. Interestingly -but for COMPLETELY opposite reasons- I agree with the implication that it shouldn't be discussed... though I don't find it surprising that it is being discussed.
Glocke askes why on earth would someone want to bring their possibly controversial views...
Take a good look at this, because it perfectly illustrates something profound which at least glocke apparently doesn't get at all. ALL of EVERYONES views are possibly contraversial... possibly contraversial is conceptual nonsense, absolutely and completely useless and not rationally integratable... unless one takes it absolutely literally, in which case it's still useless.
ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING can be possibly contraversial and/or potentially offensive. ANYTHING. And EVERYTHING.
This whole notion that just because something falls into a category of politics, religion sex or death or... philosophy... that it shouldn't be discussed and/or that limiting such topics protects us... is absurd.
Glocke says a few other points I want to respond to:
A quick look at some other music related forums reveals that no politcal/social commentary section exists for the ones I saw.
... Clearly the implication is that what 'other forums' have/allow on/in their sites is of some potential meaning or relevance. This implication is so arbitrary, defenseless, and (self-edited) that no other observation is appropriate.
terryc posted:
glocke..I totally agree, I am a member of a motorcycle forum, the only political items we discuss is government restrictions on motorcyclists.
Wow. If you look a little bit deeper... just a little... you may see that the idea of governmental restrictions on motorcycles can't be rationally separated from the underlying issue of what our rights are and what governments legitimate authority is and isn't. In fact, attempting to discuss the application of principles in such a forum where government restrictions on motorcyles may be discussed, but the underlying and related issues may not be discussed leads to an epistemologically haphazard environement which acts to undermine its own goals as much as promote them. If it isn't self-evident how absurd this notion is... you're missing a pretty significant logical point with a universe of implications.
Those of you that view this as why are we even considering whether or not to allow open/uncensored/offensive speech to occur here are fooling yourselves... because (A) you AREN'T ELIMINATING (and CAN'T eliminate) offensive communication... you're just artificially limiting to and catering to some arbitrary standard (even if it's ultimate the will of the PTB), and (B) what you ARE doing is promoting an environment that's the reverse of what you seem to want.
The censorship policies of this forum have actively discouraged and chased away at least several members, and from what I can gather, a lot.
Most will not take the time to post as I have -although a double-digit number of people have sent me emails such as the one I posted above expressing agreement with my sentiments.
You have chased us away with your policies. Those of you that need mommy-censor and daddy censor and going crying to mommy and daddy when you see things that offend you rather than exercising the adult skills that you could acquire and exercise if you chose to do so. Instead, you seek an environment that's a reversion to preschool and which forfeits the crucial essence and consequence riches of the uncensored/adult environment.
I'm out of here, gang, and I won't be back. Not unless things change big time, and become a fundamentally and radically different place from how it is now -which I don't see happening.
You know, this is going to sound really harsh, but it's really not a cheap shot. It's just the best way I can think of to express an impression. There's 2 houses I've gone to in my lifetime where the residents had cats that weren't fixed... male I think... where, as soon as you walk in the house, the odor of catpiss in the furniture, everywhere is so overpowering it's allmost impossible to stay in the house. I remember these times clearly, and being stunned that the residents weren't embarrassed to tears (and their homes were otherwise actually orderly) over how atrocious their homes were. But indeed, they actually simply didn't realize it. They were used to the smell, and I'm sure they likely focused on the love and good things they did have in their homes. I never went back to either of them after the first time.
And that's actually kind of how it is here. The dogma and restrictiveness of the environment here has a similar quality.
I do wish you all the best -though I'll frankly add that I also do both miss (most of) you, but also am still angry at those who led to my not wanting to come around, and at their mentality and the harm it causes.
Take care, all.
PS I was planning to delete my member info but will leave it up for a while so others can email me.
