Author Topic: Emergency Bass Rig (Read 1148 times)

Bradley Young · « **Reply #15 on:** March 07, 2013, 01:36:44 PM »

Sam,

Basses don't really have that much high-end in PA terms, which is why a single 15 can sound okay. One other problem that you run into with 15s is beaming, so all the high-end content (from something like 700-900Hz) comes out in a straight line from the cone. This is why having a mid in a bass cab makes a lot of sense.

If you're playing an Alembic, I think it's highly desirable to just have my bass, only louder. Some people want coloration from their cabs (SWR, Eden, etc), I think that an Alembic really deserves clean amplification.

edwin · « **Reply #16 on:** March 07, 2013, 02:05:17 PM »

Also, the JBLs used in the Alembic cabinets have a lot more high end extension than most 15s. The only real problem with their frequency response is that it gets very beamy at the higher end.

There are some newer cabinets coming out these days from boutique designers that are super small and apparently sound great. The Crazy 8 and Crazy 88 from Greenboy is apparently amazing sounding and there's a trio of speaker builders (Leland Crooks, Mike Arnopol and someone else) who started a business called Big E speakers that apparently do defy conventional speaker design wisdom. I haven't heard those, but I'd love to. Apparently super small and super efficient and super deep. It's a great time to be a bass player!

http://bigeloudspeakers.com

oddmetersam · « **Reply #17 on:** March 07, 2013, 02:46:05 PM »

Bradley, I hear what you're saying. I understand that there are different challenges and limitations to be overcome if we want the ideal live sound for our basses. There's a huge variety of high-tech, esoteric gear designs created specifically for that purpose. Many of these are large, heavy, only come into their own when cranked at loud volumes and/or are very expensive.

When I had to resort to using my studio monitors for live bass amplification it occurred to me there may be other pieces of gear we possibly have but never considered serving double duty similar to this.

Personally, I can more easily see where having a mid makes a lot of sense as you pointed out. Back in the days when I had an F1-X I once biamped my then 4 x 10 / 1 x 15 rig, crossed it over at the lowest point of the tweeter in the 4 x 10 cab and completely turned the 15 cab off. When I played it sounded like listening to the ocean in a seashell or a scratchy transistor radio and at a volume level that couldn't have possibly been audible over the other speakers had they been involved. I also notice when I see bass cabs mic'd on stage I almost never see a mic placed on a tweeter.

I know the saying goes there's no such thing as a dumb question, but I will stretch the truth of that by asking this: How come 6-string guitar cabs don't have an array of tweeters and, say, a mid-range speaker in a kind of mirror image of a typical bass cab?

Should I get ready to duck a bunch of flying shoes?

oddmetersam · « **Reply #18 on:** March 07, 2013, 02:53:05 PM »

Hey, Edwin
Thanks for the heads up on the Big E's. One reason I have to go small is that I have no car at the moment...

5a_quilt_top · « **Reply #19 on:** March 07, 2013, 03:14:06 PM »

Nope - good question.

I also play electric and acoustic guitar and electric guitar is a totally different animal.

Low-tech, lower output passive pickups through primitive (by bass standards) tube powered gear is usually much better for electric guitar, especially where overdriven tones are concerned.

Overdrive tends to boost the mids & highs, which will sound harsh & brittle and tear your head off unless they are tempered by some speaker inefficiency. This is why those low-watt 25 watt 12 Celestion green backs and 15 watt 12 alnico blues are so highly regarded for overdriven guitar applications. They warm up the overall tone a bit while retaining just the right amount of high-end sparkle. This is similar to what you were getting at with your Claypool sonic junk reference above.

Alembic-style electric guitars can get there through the right kind of rig, but the consensus among the guitarists I know is, they are better suited for cleaner, more articulate applications. If one is playing cleaner using this type of instrument, one could get away with a more hi-fi approach to guitar amplification, but IMO, they'd still have to be careful to tame the high end - which means no tweeters.

Acoustic guitars, on the other hand, are more like electric basses. They benefit from smaller, more efficient speakers and tweeters and cleaner amplification with a lot of headroom.

Bradley Young · « **Reply #20 on:** March 09, 2013, 07:56:56 AM »

Sam,

If I were trying to produce a hi-fi guitar, I'd be running exactly that: efficient 6 or 8 speakers, crossed over properly to a nice waveguided tweeter. This happens to be what acoustic guitar amps look like.

Guitars running 12s is historical (only way to get enough volume, based on amplifier power), and then distortion came into the mix. Interestingly, the side by side design of a lot of guitar amps (e.g. 2x12) is terrible for dispersion (yay comb filtering!); they would do better turned on their side.

lbpesq · « **Reply #21 on:** March 09, 2013, 10:52:27 AM »

They may make excellent speakers, but that Big E website is terrible! I just explored it and still have no idea whatsoever what their speakers look like or how much they cost. I sure hope they design speakers better than they do websites!

Bill, tgo

edwin · « **Reply #22 on:** March 09, 2013, 10:57:01 AM »

The website is terrible. It's only been in the last few months that this Waveguide Vortex concept has been discovered and so they are spending all their time getting product built and designs refined. I have no idea how much they cost as well. There are a couple of threads at TalkBass that are pretty interesting for those who want more information. It sounds like they only have maybe a couple of dozen cabinets out in the world at this point.

Here's the second thread with a link to the first one at the very top. Interesting reading. http://www.talkbass.com/forum/f15/big-e-speakers-pt-2-a-963685/

oddmetersam · « **Reply #23 on:** March 09, 2013, 10:59:09 AM »

Thanks for your info, Bradley. I'll make a special note of the differences between stacking the KRK's with the tweets vertically opposite each other vs. with the 2 ports and the woofers vertically opposite. I always sit when I play and the top cab is approximately the same height as my armpit.

These are near field monitors and I have no idea how well they actually project into say, a 30' room and how much an empty vs. room full of people will affect the sound. I'll probably have to enlist some helpers and maybe record the room sound from various distances to get a feel for how my system really performs.

slawie · « **Reply #24 on:** March 09, 2013, 03:21:13 PM »

This is my rig for playing gigs in small pubs, cafes, telephone booths and shoe boxes. Aguilar TH 350 and a TC Electronic RS210. One trip for load in. 48lb. cabinet and all the rest in my gig bag.
slawie

(Message edited by Slawie on March 09, 2013)

edwin · « **Reply #25 on:** March 09, 2013, 04:39:32 PM »

That cabinet is 48lbs?! That's what my big fEARful weighs!

slawie · « **Reply #26 on:** March 09, 2013, 05:48:54 PM »

Sorry fat-fingered the weight. Should read 46lbs.

I have a bit of Jonesing going on for a fearful.
I know of a place that will do the material and cutting
With Siberian ply. I will email you.
>Hijack over

oddmetersam · « **Reply #27 on:** March 10, 2013, 03:07:54 AM »

Hey, Slawie!
Not really a hijack if we're including examples of the smallest rig possible to actually get the job done. Especially when we're talking one-trip loadin/loadout. Per earlier comments, have you tried the cab oriented vertically at a gig?

slawie · « **Reply #28 on:** March 10, 2013, 03:45:22 AM »

Yes vertically stacked for me is normal position sounds great. Saturday night provided a stage with very little room and the stand I had it on was very high so that I could get the projection over an obstacle. If I stood it on its side I would be deaf in one ear. Sideways like that exercised my kidney. I had a 30 x 30 place to work in. I normally stack em. I have a picture somewhere here with an array stacked 3 high.
Correct me if I am wrong but a single two speaker cabinet would/sound the same vertical or horizontal. My understanding is when you stack multiple cabinets you avoid phase cancellation and combing artifacts. There are undoubtedly folks here who would have the right answers on those phenomenae.
Slawie

(Message edited by Slawie on March 10, 2013)

hankster · « **Reply #29 on:** March 10, 2013, 06:22:57 AM »

I use the tc electronics Staccato 51 in a combo with the 210 cab oriented vertically -it's great. For slightly more open sound i add a single 12 - even greater. And for gigs where they are providing a back line, I pop the amp out of the cab and throw it in my gig bag, and can almost always just use my amp with whatever monster cab is on stage so I always have my own sound (for better or worse). That is truly the most portable rig!