Author Topic: Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !  (Read 1364 times)

poor_nigel

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #15 on: March 21, 2014, 07:48:21 AM »
I like some of Neil's songs, and I like him as a person.  However, there is a huge drive to get a new system for playing music out, and not just because of its superior specs.  The most pressing matters to musicians today is probably securing intellectual rights of their creations.  Pono wants to down load it for $14.95 to $24.95 per album.  Downloads via secure means that probably will not be easy for others to grab copies off of and pass around the Internet for free.  Mo money, mo money, mo money!  My big fights with the Baby Jesus these is do I download a few MP3 off of Amazon.com for a buck each, or do I go to BeeMP3 and down load it there for free?!  The cost to replace my 200 CDs?  That is a lot of money.  Why would huge amounts of musicians get involved in Pone? Let me count the ways = $14.95, mo money, mo money, mo money!

lbpesq

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #16 on: March 21, 2014, 09:05:49 AM »
I have no problem with musicians getting  mo money.  And I certainly have no problem with paying a reasonable amount for better sounding music.  $15-25 for an album that will bring me pleasure for many years for the same cost as a decent dinner that will bring me pleasure for a couple of hours?  I say, bring it on!
 
Bill, tgo

5a_quilt_top

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #17 on: March 21, 2014, 12:10:16 PM »
If mo money coupled with mo betta' sound reproduction translates into mo betta' music - BRING IT ON!

jzstephan

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #18 on: March 21, 2014, 01:33:58 PM »
People like to download mp3s because they're small and download fast. The 24 bit 192k files will take forever to download; now. In a couple of years, the net speed will catch up and people will find a way to get them for free again. It may be just putting off the inevitable.  Downloaded mp3s are just the 21st century equivalent of radio play. Bands should give them away for free and then hope someone will want them.  I for one, would pay 15 bucks for a 24 bit 192k file of Sgt. Pepper.

dead_head

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #19 on: March 21, 2014, 07:27:32 PM »
Just my $.02 worth, but did anyone ever read this article? It's food for thought. Again, just my $.02.......   http://people.xiph.org/~xiphmont/demo/neil-young.html
 
 
Rob

lbpesq

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #20 on: March 21, 2014, 11:07:42 PM »
That's the very same article that's referenced earlier in this thread.  And it's just as unpersuasive the second time around.   The bottom line is that mp3s suck.  I don't claim to be an acoustic engineer, nor do I have super ears, but I can certainly easily hear the difference between mp3s and CDs.  And I expect that Pono will provide reasonable download speeds.  Even it it takes a long time, I really won't mind setting up a download at bedtime and waking up to great sounding music on my own portable player.  
 
I bet if the author wrote about guitars, he would tell us that Dan Electros were actually better sounding, better playing, and better constructed than Alembics because all that aged wood just doesn't hold a candle to particle board!
 
Bill, tgo

pauldo

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #21 on: March 22, 2014, 05:12:24 AM »
I concur that we have excepted the convenience of 'portable and tiny' technology over great sound.
 
Here's what I know:
A friend of mine is in local band that I really enjoy. Their second release on CD was listened to so much I knew it forward and back. He decided to have it re-released on vinyl. I put it on my stereo downstairs and could NOT believe the things that I was hearing that weren't audible on the CD.
 
It is a fact that we aren't hearing what we should be hearing with current popular media.
 
Are musicians giving it a great spiel for mo money - maybe, but isn't that where the world is these days?
 
I hope that PONO truly does sound like vinyl.

jon_jackson

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #22 on: March 22, 2014, 09:47:54 AM »
Here are a couple of audiophile formats for comparison:
180g vinyl runs between $18 -$34 per lp, depending upon the artist and material.  
 
SACD runs about $30 per unit, plus a player which is often over $1200.
 
A player / format with the audio and soundstage attributes of vinyl but with the background quietness and durability of digital would be a wonderful advance...
Jon
2011 Quilted Maple Dragon Wing, Anniversary Electronics
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sonicus

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #23 on: March 22, 2014, 10:34:46 AM »
I was raised  and trained on a love for Audio Tape !    
 
 If you can get your hands on a MASTER TAPE @ 15 or 30 ips with Dolby SR encoding , you will hear what I am writing about.  
  Of course then you will need a decent machine and equipment to play it on . ( I have  been hoarding several  such machines for a long time  )  
 
     The Tape Project was  interesting,but a bit pricy .( better then Vinyl to my ears ) _________BUT NOT as convenient as PONO.    
 
 
http://www.tapeproject.com/  Check it out !

jzstephan

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #24 on: March 22, 2014, 12:37:12 PM »

This sounds good.

sonicus

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #25 on: March 22, 2014, 01:29:28 PM »
The above is a Studer J-37

sonicus

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #26 on: March 22, 2014, 01:33:16 PM »
I am on the Studer list, The Ampex List and the MCI Forum

flpete1uw

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #27 on: March 22, 2014, 06:51:14 PM »
Wolf,
 Didn't know there were such lists and forums. Back in the old studio days listening to a 2TRK 1/2 30ips Studer was the norm. I had no idea at the time how spoiled I've become. I couldn't listen to CD's when they first came out. The shrill!!! Then the lull of complacentcy. I would Love for this or any good replacement standard to take off.  
  Well enough of the back in the day stuff
Peace Pete

sonicus

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #28 on: March 22, 2014, 07:39:32 PM »
Pete ,  
You might like the AMPEX list  !  If you ever would like to refurbish  an old Ampex machine like a 350/351  AG350 / AG440
 MM1000 /MM1100/MM1200 , etc ... ...  we are all there to help you on the way . SO many brilliant folks there. Including some  Famous  older Engineers that have worked on many major old record labels .
 
Wolf
 
(Message edited by sonicus on March 22, 2014)

edwin

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Neil Young's Pono HD 24/192 Player Is Here !
« Reply #29 on: March 24, 2014, 02:17:13 AM »
I think the Pono thing is pretty cool, but mostly because the converters are made by Ayre Acoustics here in Boulder, which will easily blow away the converters on most of the players that most people here will listen to. As far as the format of the files go, I'm not sold. Everyone can find anecdotal evidence where a record sounds better than a CD or this or that format sounds better than another, but 99.9999999999% of the time, this has more to do with the mastering than anything else. The truth is that many tests have been done where people have compared 320kbs mp3s with high resolution audio (88.2k or 96k 24 bit files or higher) and not been able to tell the difference.  
 
I have to say that I love the sound of tape. A well calibrated Studer is an awesome thing of beauty. The sound has depth, impact, detail, all that great stuff (I have some reservations about SR, but that's another conversation. It does provide a more black background, which is very nice). But so does my Metric Halo ULN-8. Even playing a properly mastered CD is an incredible experience through its converters in a good room with good speakers, etc. Every kind of recording system has its positive attributes and its drawbacks (badly calibrated tape machines are completely hideous, as are poorly mastered digital recordings through crappy converters). So, I don't think Pono is really all that revolutionary in terms of the media. If it can inspire the end of the loudness wars and bad mastering, then I think it will be an overall positive thing, but other than that, it seems like dramatic posturing about confirmation bias. With well recorded stuff, delivered on properly prepared media, I don't think one system has inherent superiority over another. We certainly don't need 192khz sampling rates to adequately represent the music. Nyquist proved that a long time ago in terms of the theoretical requirements and people like Dan Lavry showed us that somewhere around 60khz is an optimum sampling rate to represent music with as much resolution as we can perceive. Some systems might sound better at higher resolutions, but that is due more to implementation than it is to an inherent improvement at higher rates. In fact, sometimes higher rates can make things worse. But, implementation is why I have some faith in Pono. Ayre is a great company that makes great audio stuff and with them doing the converters, we're guaranteed that part won't be screwed up. In my experience, it's actually harder to screw up digital sound than analog. Once a design is properly implemented and constructed, it pretty much works. Analog requires maintenance and care to deliver optimum audio over time. Each unit needs precise calibration that can't be built into the system by design.
 
Here's an article that addresses some of these issues:
http://www.trustmeimascientist.com/2013/02/04/the-science-of-sample-rates-when-higher-is-better-and-when-it-isnt/
 
One experience I've had is listening to the first playback of the original reels of the master mix from Terrapin Station in 30+ years on a very tricked out tape machine (the whole catalog was being prepped for the Plangent process, which I did not get to experience, as the processing happens later. Here's a circumstance where the digital copy can actually exceed the original analog master) into David Glasser's mastering rig. It was astounding how much depth and detail was in those tapes. And the digital playback sounded indistinguishable to my ears. David's room is capable of incredible resolution, so if there were differences that would carry over to the rigs most of us listen to music on, they would be immediately obvious. Both the tape and the playback immediately drew me into the music and made me forget about what I was listening to. For 90% of us, we can do more for our listening experience by getting good converters and treating our rooms than paying extra high prices for the music we already own. So, I don't think Pono is really necessary.
 
As far as Bill's point that mp3s vs. CDs are a clear difference, I would imagine that's true in most cases, as most mp3s out there are at 128kbs or maybe 256kbs, but a well converted 320kbs is virtually indistinguishable from CD or higher quality. The key here is the conversion, not the inherent quality of the media. AACs are even better. Put it through average sound system or walkman or a car stereo and there is no hope at all of telling the difference. There is a huuuuuuuuuge discussion about all this at gearslutz.com. It brings out all the various entrenched camps of audio professionals about this.  
 
And as a final note, I have to be skeptical that a 68 year old man who has spent his life in rock and roll has ears that are capable of incredibly fine resolution, especially at higher frequencies. I know I don't.
 
As always, YMMV.
 
PS. that Ampex list is legendary in the pro audio circles!