Author Topic: Opinions on Amount of Polish / Perfection Required to Book a Typical Gig (Read 691 times)

5a_quilt_top · « **Reply #15 on:** May 04, 2015, 12:16:17 PM »

Hey all - thanks for the thoughtful replies! I figured this might be a topic that would generate a variety of insightful responses because, at one time or another we've all been there.

In this particular case, I think Joey nailed it when he wrote ...weaker players always seemed to want to rehearse a lot more: Confidence issues maybe, stage fright (which has never happened to me), who knows? because it was the two least experienced players that were driving the gotta be 100% perfect before we play out bus.

Also, Dave and Wolf made some good points about the expectations of the audience and the performer.

I agree, if someone is paying a $10 - $20 cover charge to see a specific performance in a club, their expectation would probably be higher than if they are just sitting around in a bar where there happened to be live entertainment.

I also aspire to the Harry James quote, but I temper that aspiration with a bit of reality similar to what Bill wrote: For every 100 times that I know I screwed up, my band-mates catch 10 and the audience catches 1.

To that end, I sometimes practice screwing up to see if I can successfully navigate out of it without derailing the song or anyone catching it. And, sometimes those mistakes can lead to something interesting.

And - everyone will know you've screwed up if you make it more obvious by your facial expression or body language...so I also practice going on as though nothing happened.

Bottom line - during a live performance, there will most likely be some mistakes. The mark of a true pro is expect them, prepare for them and for the band members to function as a team so the audience remains unaware that anything happened.

IMO, the only way to really become comfortable with doing that is to play live.

tubeperson · « **Reply #16 on:** May 04, 2015, 12:41:02 PM »

Herbie Hancock has told the story that while he was playing with Miles in a live performance (Miles Davis for you rockers that do not know who he is), that he played an awkward, incorrect chord. Miles gave him a look, then played notes that resolved the issue. Now that is grace under fire. There is a way to smooth out bad notes and make them sound like they fit in. I always keep that close to the vest when playing.

David Houck · « **Reply #17 on:** May 04, 2015, 07:33:06 PM »

I hadn't heard that particular Miles story before (or perhaps I had, but just don't remember); but every thing I've read from musicians who played with him reflected the same type of extraordinary musicianship.

terryc · « **Reply #18 on:** May 05, 2015, 01:35:57 AM »

You know I have actually heard my gear play the wrong notes, maybe they are the right notes but in the wrong order LOL

jazzyvee · « **Reply #19 on:** May 05, 2015, 04:22:04 AM »

In old saxophonist told me many years back, there are no wrong notes in jazz just better note choices. I'm still trying to work out what the better note choices are. :-)

sonicus · « **Reply #20 on:** May 05, 2015, 05:49:39 AM »

In much of Big band Jazz and variations that are also charted in staff notation will give you the correct intended note just like reading classical music. In truly improvisational jazz that is where you have more freedom , Think John Coltrane , the great sax master ! I think he knew what the better notes were, He was also very studious and was a incredibly knowledgeable with scales. One of the musical reference books that he studied from was this ;
Thesaurus Of Scales And Melodic Patterns written by Nicolas Slonimsky.

http://www.amazon.com/Thesaurus-Scales-Melodic-Patterns-Text/dp/082561449X

Frank Zappa , Jaco Pastorius and many other brilliant folks also studied it ! I purchased my copy a few decades ago, and I am still trying to become brillant as well ! LOL ,

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicolas_Slonimsky

Wolf

5a_quilt_top · « **Reply #21 on:** May 05, 2015, 01:07:17 PM »

A guitar instructor once told me that a wrong note is only 1/2 step up or down from being the right note.

He suggested that I view wrong notes as passing tones and they could only be considered wrong if they were held for a long duration without resolution.

Mastering those scales that Wolf mentioned above would probably come in handy for THAT!

Also, when I was first learning how to play guitar and was hung up on everything must be 100% perfect all the time, an older keyboard player I knew invited me to watch him perform with a fairly accomplished lounge act.

He told me that he would make an obvious mistake that night - like playing Bbm7 instead of Cmaj7 - and that he would look right at me and smile when he did it. He did and then he repeated the same intentional error again during the next verse.

When he spoke to me on break afterward, he asked me if anyone in the band or audience seemed to notice or if anyone said anything about it.

Of course, the answer was no.

His point was the song did not fall apart and the show went on as though nothing happened.

lbpesq · « **Reply #22 on:** May 05, 2015, 01:30:22 PM »

Hey, I NEVER play a wrong note ... but it's funny how sometimes the rest of the band can all play the same wrong note together while I play the right note all by myself!

hehehehe

Bill, tgo

gtrguy · « **Reply #23 on:** May 05, 2015, 04:25:39 PM »

They only notice the singers... (sob)

sonicus · « **Reply #24 on:** May 05, 2015, 05:00:53 PM »

Great singing is truly a gift , through training, practice or just natural talent ; a gift ! In this day and age in a live situation in particular because of studio pitch correction software and digital editing capabilities in the recording environment. I have had a few different requests a few different times with different artists for such manipulation of their tracks. It is possible for me to just do it for them but I always encourage them to do another take and play it correctly and my suggestions are often met with irritation form the artist. I have heard a few times that other engineer did it for me ! I would often like to tell them what is on my mind when I hear that, but I just smile back and grin and say , shall me try it again ? Rolling ____take 2 !

cozmik_cowboy · « **Reply #25 on:** May 05, 2015, 10:20:00 PM »

Harry James? I'd always heard that attributed to Vladimir Horowitz (but 1 = self, 2 = critics, 3 = audience.)

A bass player I'd worked with before called me to do sound for a new-wavish cover band in the mid-80s. This bandleader wanted perfection. Had put together a great PA, a (ahem) decent engineer, & a talented band, and rehearsed something like 6 hours, 5 days a week for almost a year (yes, I said a cover band) . When we finally played out, we were ready!!! About 4 months in, the bandleader (also an acoustic engineer on the side) gets a job offer from JBL & moves to CA.
Oops.
Good call on the bail-out, David.

Peter

cozmik_cowboy · « **Reply #26 on:** May 05, 2015, 10:20:23 PM »

Harry James? I'd always heard that attributed to Vladimir Horowitz (but 1 = self, 2 = critics, 3 = audience.)

A bass player I'd worked with before called me to do sound for a new-wavish cover band in the mid-80s. This bandleader wanted perfection. Had put together a great PA, a (ahem) decent engineer, & a talented band, and rehearsed something like 6 hours, 5 days a week for almost a year (yes, I said a cover band) . When we finally played out, we were ready!!! About 4 months in, the bandleader (also an acoustic engineer on the side) gets a job offer from JBL & moves to CA.
Oops.
Good call on the bail-out, David.

Peter

hankster · « **Reply #27 on:** May 08, 2015, 04:42:30 AM »

depends on the purpose of the band. If it's a show band, or a clone band, or a big deal - touring, stadiums - of course you need more rehearsal. My favourites, though, are the bands where the gig is booked first, and the musicians and rehearsal, if any, come later. I love the spontaneity and the particular kind of focus that comes with playing live when you are reading the gig and anything - and I mean anything - might happen next. And it's so much fun to meet players for the first time at the gig, and hear them play, and be amazed at the miracle of music in the hands of real players coming together on the spot, with the audience watching it all happen - they can feel it too.

5a_quilt_top · « **Reply #28 on:** May 08, 2015, 11:41:29 AM »

One of the projects that I continue to work with operates a lot like that - we intentionally do not rehearse material to death so that it remains fresh and edgy because of the excitement / energy generated by can we pull this one off - ?

And our shows frequently feature audience requests. The basic rule being, if one guy knows it real well, the others can usually support him well enough to put the song across.

Footnote to the original post that started this thread: the drummer revealed to me in a recent email that he has been with this (as he put it) ever-changing group for 18 MONTHS and they have not played a single gig. For some reason, this didn't seem to bother him, even though he's paying to rehearse week after week...

Note to self: ask to see the band's calendar prior to auditioning for future projects...don't take their word that hey man, we'll have jobs, no problem. I could book us right now.

bassman10096 · « **Reply #29 on:** May 22, 2015, 04:51:49 AM »

Practice is great and can be extremely important to producing the result you want. However, in my experience, different musicians have varying perspectives on how their band sounds to them, as well as assumptions and preferences that determine whether they like what they hear. I have played for years (off and on) with a guitarist who's reasonably diligent at learning our tunes, but his goal is to sound identical to the original artist's recorded version. No amount of discussion, negotiation or explanation of differing perspectives seems to make a dent in his belief that anything except a virtual reenactment of something produced in the studio, generally years ago sounds right. This is complicated by a serious lack of understanding about how studio recordings are mixed.

It's taken me a long time to get over needing him to like what he hears in rehearsal -- because he usually is happy with the results when we play out. Hard to understand how all that works for him, but if we waited till he was pleased with our rehearsal sound -- well, it'd never happen.

So many things don't happen till a band plays in a live setting. Everything sounds different (a little, or more likely a lot). For me, things I've played in rehearsal have produce different results on stage than in the rehearsal room. Generally, I find live performance begs for a bit of overacting to avoid having the lovely subtleties get lost in the mix. Something like what stage actors say about their craft. Often it's far easier to hear the bigger interactions and flow of the music live. I really enjoy hearing the reactions when less-experienced musicians take their stuff out in public the first few times. That's where the rubber hits the road. Rehearsal's fine, but it's a poor representation of what a band actually does and can do.

(Message edited by bassman10096 on May 22, 2015)