Author Topic: New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)  (Read 1649 times)

hankster

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #30 on: December 20, 2015, 12:35:13 PM »
Great thread. Made me happy to read it. If only my kids would do this with my bass!
Live each day like your hair is on fire.

edwardofhuncote

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #31 on: December 21, 2015, 06:38:54 AM »
Joey, after cutting the strings to proper length, the silks tend to ravel. It?s a little hard to tell from the picture angle, but (the ends of) upright strings aren?t protected like on our bass guitars, that string end is still exposed even after winding over. Also, with these particular Innovation strings, the nylon inner windings kinda' do like a slinky-spring once cut. Just melting the ends a little stops that, and a quick dip in the hot parafin binds the silk. Truth be told, it ain?t necessary, but it?s just my neat-freak nature. =)  The wood bar you've mentioned is called a soundpost, and you're correct - all members of the violin family have one. It's a spruce dowel, positioned vertically inside the body of the instrument, slightly below the treble side foot of the bridge, and held in place only by the downward pressure of the strings. It?s function is to provide support, but also to transfer the vibrations to the back. The fit is crucial? too loose and they tend to fall out of place, too tight and you kill the sound. There?s a special tool we use to install the soundpost, called a setter. It?s made so the soundpost can be moved around a little once inside, as sometimes you can alter the instrument?s tonal response by moving it. Here?s a couple pictures of the soundpost installed, the setter, and how they work together. You?d thing standing a stick up vertically inside a bass would be hard ? and it is, virtually impossible without one of these.  

 

 

 

 

   Also helps to have one of these laying around to retrieve the soundpost from inside. (because turning a six-foot violin upside-down and trying to shake it out? just isn?t a good plan)  

   Oh, just for Ms. W., here?s that simple but effective homemade tool I use for projecting the arc of the fingerboard onto a new bridge:  

 

   Folks, I really appreciate the audience! And yeah? I kinda? owe the Ol? Man big time, not only for the musical influence but the shop work. I?m glad to work on something for him? especially since this bass has been in our family since new. Me and Pops have been building instruments together off and on since I was a kid. It?s fun having him over there, even if his messy style totally corrupts my groove! =)  (Message edited by edwardofhuncote on December 21, 2015)

susan

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #32 on: December 21, 2015, 07:57:30 AM »
Greg,
 
Thanks for the pics...seems very effective.
 
The visual of someone shaking out a soundpost from a 6 foot violin gave me a chuckle. Always better to have the right tool for the job.
 
Susan

bigredbass

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #33 on: December 21, 2015, 08:09:32 AM »
It's funny in the way similar jobs require similar tools:  Whe I worked at Gibson, it's a real pain installing electronics in thinline hollow-bodies (think 335's, etc.) and not much more fun with full Jazz boxes.  
 
So for 335's, they use a very similar looking tool to reach through the neck pickup hole and install the entire 4-pot, assembled,  wiring harness with them sticking thru the 4 holes:  Cinch the top nuts, solder the pickups and the jacks onto the leads, done, beginning with a setting tool that looks very similar.
 
Joey

bigredbass

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #34 on: December 21, 2015, 08:15:54 AM »
Greg, I wonder:  Since the original idea for the great archtops is lifted directly from viol instruments (Flame maple box with spruce top, floating biredge, maple neck with ebony fingerboard), I wonder why (obviously, a guitar is held against you than 'floated' away from the body by a chin/shoulder rest as are violins) soundposts never showed up in guitars . . . . do they show up in their fretted first cousins, mandolin-family instruments?
 
Joey

edwardofhuncote

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #35 on: December 21, 2015, 09:05:28 AM »
Ha - I always wondered how in the world they got all that stuff inside an already assembled guitar!
 
Re: archtop guitars/mandolins and soundposts, I've often wondered about that too Joey... maybe with an archtop instrument's back resting against you when played there is a dampening effect, that negates the transfer. Most likely it's more to do with the extra amount of downward force exerted on the top of guitars and mandolins with steel strings. (violins and larger members typically have rope core strings in varying tensions)  
 
I do know from a structural standpoint, with (most) carved top mandolins and guitars, the construction has two tone bars running lengthwise to brace the top, and that they are oriented so that they pass underneath the feet of the floating bridges... presumably to spread the vibrations out over the full soundboard.  
 
Violins conversely, have a single tone bar (usually called a bass bar) under the bass side of the instrument, and a soundpost supporting the treble side. If I had to guess, I'd reckon a violin with two tone bars instead of a soundpost would sound thin, just by virtue of the extra mass concentrated right where the top needs to be most resonant. Hmmm... just a guess, may need revision.

sonicus

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #36 on: December 21, 2015, 09:46:55 AM »
I have a vision now ! ________    
 It would be interesting for someone at Alembic to design a High Breed Acoustic Bass Guitar  using a sound post as in the Double Bass with a Large Jumbo Body like the Guild B-50 was ( perhaps a bit bigger) . This new design could be like a 1/4  or less size Bass Violin design that you can play on your knee like a Guitar. If it had an Alembic Logo on it with the lovely Crown Head Stock design this instrument just might be irresistible  !    If it had a small Bass Violin appearance that would be sweet . If it had  an Alembic Pickup on it even better ( I see a single Fatboy with Volume /Filter . )
 
Wolf

ed_zeppelin

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #37 on: December 21, 2015, 12:03:36 PM »
I always encourage electric bassists to take up the upright, just because it's so much fun.
 
http://youtu.be/2SriEOjsDCo
 
See what I mean?  
 
Bass Guitar To Upright Bass: The Top Ten Mistakes Migrating Players Make.
 
Greg, I couldn't be more impressed by your monumental achievement. I mean that right down to my core. Consider this a standing ovation (yeah, I'm sitting down, but you know what I mean).  
 
I know how insanely difficult it is to seat an adjustable  bass bridge, correctly as only an inept buffoon who has learned a very valuable (as in; expensive) lesson from hubris and over exuberance can attest.  
 
Brunhilde came with a warped fixed bridge, and I was all hot to get a David Gage Realist pickup so I picked up an adjustable bridge for her. Special order from Germany, too. Woo hoo!  
 
It's interesting that you used the word yaw because that's the perfect word to describe one of the three most important vectors to contend with when you're trying to sand the bridge's feet to conform to two separate compound angles, so that the bridge stands at a perfect right angle to a surprisingly flexible top (or table) that slopes in approximately umpteen directions at once.
 
It was the adjustable feet that doomed my first attempt. I smeared a dab of lipstick on the bottoms of the feet and taped sandpaper face-up on the top, measuring and measuring again and finally, C-clamping a long - straight - length of 1x1 molding to the end of the fingerboard for reference. (Like your homemade pencil gizmo.) That's where those adjustable feet threw me off.  
 
I got the worst thumb-cramps I've ever had from gripping those feet between my thumbs and index fingers, like I was trying to crack walnuts, and slowly dragging them back and forth, back and forth, back and forth ... Meanwhile, every time I paused and looked at the bottoms, a different part of the base was getting sanded off than I was expecting. Every time. I couldn't for the life of me figure out what was going on. I'd get closer and closer, then it would go wonky on me.
 
Finally I realized that I should have placed the sound post first, because every time I gripped the crap out of those adjustable feet and bore down with extra determination, the table flexed. The more I tried to work on a certain area, the farther off it went. When I wrestled the sound post into place, it was too far gone and I think I may have sustained permanent damage from kicking myself in the ass.
 
That's also when I found out that you can't buy the little feet separately, and of course I was too dumb to make my own.
 
I took her to John Stewart in Massachusetts with my tail tucked between my legs (makes it difficult to walk, especially if you're prone to tail-wagging, like me) and vowed to never mess with classical instruments again.  
 
Good thing I did, too, because he told me that even though she's a hundred years old (still has her curves, though) nobody had ever set her up properly. The nut was too high, the soundpost had been turned around to some degree by some nimrod (raises hand) who was unaware that the end was seated to exactly conform with one particular angle, so that only about 10% or so was contacting the back ...
 
My god, what a difference. There's an unbelievable amount of skill and knowledge involved in that stuff. And I had been playing upright since I had to stand on tiptoe to reach an F but had no idea that there was so much involved.  
 
I always say that because I started playing upright in school orchestras, by the time I figured out that I was too dumb to play it, I was already pretty good at it.
 
 
Sonicus, the soundpost is really there for playing the bass with a bow (arco). There is no electric bass equivalent, because the bow literally excites the whole instrument (your left hand can go numb from the vibrations). It's the coolest feeling ever, and like the video of slapping I posted at the beginning of this seemingly never-ending rant demonstrates, it's surprisingly easy to do.
 
Besides, the string bass is the most versatile orchestral instrument, by far. It's used in more types of music than any other instrument. It's changed very little in over three hundred years, and so it's our legacy as cool guys (that 350 year old bass I posted pictures of was hauled around Venice in gondolas, by guys exactly like us).
 
My only other advice is to get lessons, because we hold our left hand differently so it's a lot less stressful on your fingers (especially the way we balance on our left thumb). Get it set up by a pro and arguably it'll be as easy to play as your Alembic, with slinkier strings.  
 
And once you get past the part of using a bow where it sounds like a walrus being tortured, you'll discover this incredibly powerful resonance and singing qualities that'll rock your world. Words can't describe it (that's never stopped me from shoveling as many as I can, though).

edwardofhuncote

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #38 on: December 21, 2015, 01:05:12 PM »
Thanks Forest, but don't give too much credit. I'm just a C- student from the Skool of Life's Hard Knocks. As we say 'round here, sometimes even a blind squirrel finds an acorn. =)  
 
But I do agree those adjustable bridges are the scourge of the world to cut properly.  
 
Seriously, I did have some good teachers along the way... the first being my Pops, but secondly and more directly, a topnotch luthier/repairman/genius jig-maker named Ward Elliott. Don't bother looking for Ward on the internet - he don't do the online thing. This 10 year-old thread on Mandolin Cafe is about all you'll ever find. His humble post is the last one.  
 
http://www.mandolincafe.com/forum/showthread.php?17322-Ward-Elliot-Mandolins
 
After apprenticing under a violin-maker in the Pacific Northwest, he came home to Virginia and began doing his own repairwork. Later, he gained some notice by building the first sets of Stelling mandolins. A little later yet, he began building his own. These days, he mostly does repair and setup... the absolute BEST fretwork you've ever seen. Human PLEK machine. Guy can fix anything.

sonicus

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #39 on: December 21, 2015, 01:10:04 PM »
Forest ,   Mitchell Holman the original Bassist for  It's a  Beautiful Day  built an interesting Electric Bass that he played Arco. I met him a few years ago when I drove up to his place to purchase an  AMPEX and a STUDER tape machine from him .He told a little me a little about the bass in a discussion that we had .  
 
 

 
 
 That is a great article ! I sold my upright in 2005  . I was still using the French Bow Arco technique. Recently I thought that I might pick up another upright and use a German Bow Arco technique instead.
 
 
 
 Wolf

sonicus

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #40 on: December 21, 2015, 01:19:33 PM »
Gregory please excuse my last post . I have no intension to highjack. Just a response to the flow of the thread,  
 
 Wolf

edwardofhuncote

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #41 on: December 21, 2015, 02:42:58 PM »
All good Sonicus! The thread is pretty much done... I was just enjoying seeing where else it might go. =)

sonicus

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #42 on: December 21, 2015, 03:20:46 PM »
Gregory ,  
                Dear Sir , I have very much appreciated all that you have shared with us here in our little corner of the WEB , (The best spot )  
 
   I hope that you  and your family will have a wonderful holiday season , Your Dad hopefully will have an exemplary memorable experience with his bass restored at the hands of his very own Son !   (  Surely a Fathers delight )  
          Coolness to the 10th power my friend !  
 
Wolf
 
 
(Message edited by sonicus on December 21, 2015)

ed_zeppelin

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #43 on: December 21, 2015, 04:00:11 PM »
quote:I drove up to his place to purchase an AMPEX and a STUDER tape machine from him
 
Drool. I'm an analog guy in a digital world. I remember when people genuflected when saying those names. I'd pore over recording mags and dream of the day I could get an SSL Board and a 2 tape machine. Ha ha, the closest I got was the Drawmer gate that's still in my old road rack. I kept throwing money at PA stuff, just so I could gig and not be at the mercy of some jerk singer who had a PA, and next thing I knew everybody went ProTools and Cubase and are recording (c)rap music in their parent's basement, and the music industry did something very messy in their sleeping area.
 
Sigh.  
 
quote:AMPEX ... tape
Congratulations on being the first to answer (in a rather oblique way) my riddle about Alembic being founded on rust.

sonicus

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New/Old Bass Day (for my Dad)
« Reply #44 on: December 21, 2015, 07:15:47 PM »
Gregory , I hope to find a nice 1/4 upright soon for my Frankenstein like experiments as a lap Bass !  
 
FOREST  , Iron oxide rules  in it's various on existences as found on Acetate  , Mylar, and Polyester  tape base and in my vocational world as an analog to digital transfer  audio engineer it is very important to know what I can bake in my lab oven or dehydrator and what NOT .  ONLY bake mylar like AMPEX 456 and its kin types .  Why do we bake a tape  for you ?  Because the binding chemistry has broken down on the Mylar stuff from certain  makers and certain years .  NEXT , know your flux density , for your alignment adjustment  on the transfer machine. Many times it will be 185nWb/per meter on the early stuff .  I did a Transfer a a few years ago recorded on 3M 111 dated 1959 !  Acetate based 1/4  full track speed 15ips  from an AFL-CIO source client that was amazing in the final product, The next day I did one recorded on AMPEX 456 from the 1980S that was less then I would have liked it to be . The Mylar stuff is often where the most work must be done in the restoration process . More time spent with this material for an acceptable result.  
 
I like this link ; http://www.sengpielaudio.com/calculator-magneticflux.htm
 
 
Wolf Bostedt AKA  Sonicus Here @ The Alembic Club  
& Sonicus Alembicus on Soundcloud