Author Topic: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread  (Read 2073 times)

adriaan

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #30 on: June 24, 2009, 08:22:23 AM »
Mr Domanski also posted a picture entitled My Fender Heaven. So he appears to play bass himself, and seems to like Fenders a lot.

David Houck

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #31 on: June 24, 2009, 11:10:00 AM »
I think the Terrapin bit is from page 175.
 
As for Phil Lesh, he had this really weird bass that I think was one of the first Alembics, Olsen said.  It basically sounded like somebody took a washboard with a broom handle and put one piece of rope on it.  But he was really into it: 'It's low impedance'.  I said, 'it sounds like crap - got a Fender?'  He didn't like that.

llobsterbass

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #32 on: June 24, 2009, 11:40:48 AM »
thanks for the correction lbpesq. you're right. Gary (Lyon?) produced Go to Heaven (shudder)

lbpesq

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #33 on: June 24, 2009, 01:58:38 PM »
At least they were both better than Shakedown Street.  How such an amazing musician as Lowell George could be such an abysmal producer I will never understand.
 
Bill, tgo

basstard

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #34 on: June 25, 2009, 12:36:13 AM »
Adriaan - yes, he is a very good bassist (he plays in a prog-rock band), I've heard him play. He said he's had experience with many different instruments during his years of studio work...
 
I don't know what to make of it, what he said kind of shook me, I feel quite uneasy now... You know, if such words came from the mouth of a random guy, of a crappy engineer with little experience, I wound't care. But if a very respected engineer/producer with years of experience (which is kind of weird considering how young he looks - but facts are facts) says Alembics (and most modern active basses, especially neck-thru) are worthless in studio...
 
I admit it's haunting me now.

jos

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #35 on: June 25, 2009, 03:01:38 AM »
I think this starts to be more a question of taste and how to make things happen in the studio. I know many producers who like to make the bass sound really boomy and ?unclear? they do not want to hear a presence of the bass guitar too much??.. I still like some of their production. I think its fine with people with different taste.  
The main thing is still that many musicians/producers are not aware of Alembic and all the possibilities you have with the instrument. If you do not understand something its always best to dislike it??.. That was most people do.  
I think a great example of Alembics many sound possibilities are to listen to Stanley Clarke and to Jimmy Johnson both are great but sounds totally different.  
The truth is that Jimmy Johnson has one of the greatest bass sounds in the world and sounds so good on James Taylor records. What is wrong with that sound?  
You have also to remember that many times someone changes the Alembic to some other bass it maybe an endorsement deal.
But there is room for everyone and some real great classic bass sounds are  
P-Bass with Ampeg  - it just works  
Stanley with his Alembic
Jaco with his Jazz bass
Anthony Jackson with his Fodera (also great with the Jazz bass in the -70\s)
And many many more???
 
Neck-thru basses are great in the studio if you need to hold down a note for two bars or more neck-thru are the best.
If you want to get rid of some high end, just turn off the high end from the mixer board if you do not like to listen to a big massive low-end sound just turn off the bass from the mixing board. If you think the bass sustains too much then put flatwound strings and a rubber under your strings and the bass will not sustain (this you can control with your hands as well)

hieronymous

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #36 on: June 25, 2009, 09:57:21 AM »
Many of us here are bass players, so of course we want to sound A) as good as possible, and B) the way we want to. But from the point of view of the general public, as well as record companies and producers, bass is probably pretty low down on the list. In the case of Keith Olsen, he probably already has an idea of what kind of bass sound works for him, and that's what he expects - no room for experimentation, why reinvent the wheel when we know a P-Bass will work, etc. I wonder if he listened to any live Dead tapes during the preparation for the album? Bass sounds pretty damn good to me.

olieoliver

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #37 on: June 25, 2009, 10:12:36 AM »
I've had my Alembics in the studio a few times and usually get the same reaction, a roll of the eyes and will you play our bass?. To which I reply, give me 1 take and if you don't like what you hear I'll switch. Hadn't had to switch yet.  
 
OO

JimmyJ

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #38 on: June 26, 2009, 02:38:57 AM »
Hey friends,
 
I've been out of touch but I'll jump in here too.  Thanks to Jan-Olaf for the nod.  
 
It's true, our instruments are not for everybody or maybe every situation but most great engineers will at least give it a listen!  Of course, if they already know everything then why try anything new?  Saying that all active basses are bad is like saying you will only record violins made in Italy...
 
My experience has been that if an engineer will give it a listen they generally like what they hear.  Comments like I'm not doing ANYTHING to your bass, no compressor, no EQ, nothing!  Or as Holdsworth tells me Unlike everybody else's bass, on yours if I twist the knob at 6k - there is SIGNAL up there!
 
But that's just it, the sound of an Alembic is very wide-band compared to say a Fender which is quite narrow.  If the music has room for it, then the Alembic (in my opinion) is the greatest.  But many engineers simply don't want to give the bass that much space.  And you might argue that if a bass tops out at 900hz then you can turn it up louder in the track without effecting the mix...  
 
Open-mindedness applies in both directions.  Saying Alembics are the only basses of value is the same as saying all active electronics are bad.  An Artist or producer hiring us has the ultimate say about what they want in their track. When hired as a sideman we are not the Artist and need to be open to trying new things just as we expect them to be.
 
Most people who call me know what they're getting but if the engineer wants to mic a B-15 I'll plug into it and try to give him what he wants (even if he is just trying to make it sound like a Fender).  If I get a call for say library music from the 1960's and 70's I'll explain that I only own Alembics so if they want a particular vintage bass sound I would be happy to play whatever bass THEY provide.  I've done that and it can be fun.  I do a pretty lame McCartney imitation.  Ha!
 
There are ways to make an Alembic sound bad.  I think when active onboard electronics were first introduced some of the early users may have gotten a little carried away with the tone controls and shocked and confused some audio engineers.  Where is all that clicking coming from?  I think this is why some engineers will have an immediate allergic reaction when the SEE the bass come out of the case.  Just listen to it, that's all I ask.  If you don't like it we'll try something else...
 
Best to all,
Jimmy J

lbpesq

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #39 on: June 26, 2009, 07:27:51 AM »
Jimmy:
 
When you do your McCartney imitation, do you play left-handed?  lol
 
Bill, tgo

jacko

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #40 on: June 26, 2009, 07:32:44 AM »
Now that's something I'd pay money to see;-) How's about getting JT to slip a beatles medley into the set next Tuesday?
 
Graeme

blazej_domanski

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #41 on: June 26, 2009, 01:31:34 PM »
Hello!  
 
Ok - I am this bad guy who ?hates? Alembic and Alembic inspired ?modern? neck thru body sandwich constructions with active low impedance pickups.  
 
After long telephone talk with basstard (this time very friendly because we believe that this discussion can learn us something and open our ears and mind)  and reading all of the post I decided to write here my point of view.  
 
 
Being big fun of them in the beginning of my career as an engineer after more than twelve years of working as an engineer and producer and recording a lot of material from film scoring to heavy metal (acoustic jazz fusion and indie rock and pop also) I must sadly say that those basses are not useful for more than 80% of studio work.
I am not type of lazy engineer. I used to reserve 9 to 12 track for bass guitar I tend to mix signal from different preamps miking a lot of cabinets and even tweeters. Sometimes if music call for it I even record stereo ambient pair for bass guitar. For typical session I usually  hire more than ten different amps and speakers to choose from. If somebody comes to me with Alembic and said thats it is his voice I would spend same times to find combinations of recording technicques and setup to make this guitar audible in mix but 90% times it will end up with destroying or at least heavy compromise sound of other instruments...
I am not endorser of anything. I play at least 20 years old Fenders and fender inspired instruments (mostly from 70ties) because wood on those old instruments are simply better and after being played for many years it has changed its molecular structure and became more vibrant. During many years of research I never find a new instrument with tone as  resonant, vibrant, sparkle and musically sounding as an old one made from the same or similar materials.    
Alembic Basses are very beautiful and extremely well build thats a true. As opposite Fender mid seventies and sixties basses with I consider the ultimate tone basses were build very poor quality. They need to be refretted, sometimes You have to straighten the neck, You have to remove lacquier and papers stamps from the neck and neck pocket. Usually You also change pickups because old ones became to be very microphonic and thin sounding and also change the bridge to baddass II. Thats True. But those beautifully constructed Alembic Basses have only one problem - The Idea is bad. Alembics are constructed to be extremely wide sounding basses. It is Great idea if You play alone but it is also the worst idea if You play with the band. Many says thats Alembic is the ultimate bass for bedroom players. A lot of very experienced players sad to me that during late seventies and early 80ties they buying Alembic basses because those instruments sounded extremely wide in the shop and after some time they stop playing them and came back to fenders because fellow bandmatess and engineers said that the rhythm section lacked punch and feel.  
Bass is extremely hard to mix. Every room has a different frequency response in the bass frequencies. Every speaker system also. Your mix have to be car proof and disco smile boom box proof also. It is almost impossible to mix well wide sounding instruments because every instrument need his own sonic space. Please consider in mind that classical acoustical instruments are build to be part of the team like all Orchestra instruments (they do not have extremely wide frequency range) and to be alone instruments like organs. Psycho acustics proofs as that to be well heard on all systems bass guitar need to have a lot of energy in lo mids - about 120Hz - 250 Hz and in Hi mids area 1250 Hz to 4000Hz (note clarity and definition. Our ears has ability to recreate lows when hearing to low mids (think about phone - which frequency starts at 300Hz and You recognize low male voice without a problem). Typical passive Fender Jazz has a peeks in those critical frequencies which makes this instrument easy to mix loud without stepping on anybody's heels. Thats why fenders cut through even densest mixes. Neck thru design tends to accent first fundamental frequency for example 44Hz for low E tone, bolt ons accents the harmonics (88Hz and 176 Hz for low E). In the typical mix bass drum energy is in the 40Hz to 70Hz area - so neck thru bass guitar fights with kick in the most important frequency area for kick and lacks punch and its percussiveness in lo mids area. Of course You can compensate for it playing with heavy attack. Thats why I think that Alembic neck thru are great for slapping. But to be honest I must say that slapping is last think needed for more that 90% percent of music recorded those years...
Active electronics that a bad think. The signal chain is as weak as it weakest element. You have great ears, great hands, great instrument, great pickups, and weak active buffer and great recording pre. Why ruin Your tone and dynamics with buffer amplifier made from cheap op amplifiers or transistors with +-9 volts of power when You connected Your instruments to a extremely high quality studio gear like Millennia Media Neve or Avalon made of military spec tubes resistors and capacitors with power of at least 275 Volt for tubes (with made extremely high headroom) with a great cable. It was good 30 years ago when stage equipment and cables were poor quality but things changed especially in studio... Passive electronics give You more articulation - If You do not believe me connect your instruments to auto wah or distortion pedal and after this connect a passive instrument. It is very hard to drive auto wah with active electronics because of it evenness and lack of articulation. Play line like ?come on come over? with passive every dead note is really dead with rather percussive character and lack of high and low end and not as reach in harmonic structure like ?normal? played note. With active electronics the dead note sound almost the same like normal but it is only quieter.  
Typical Fender like single coil have a lot more harmonic distortion and a lot of higher resonant peak than low impedance pickup but it is not a disadvantage - because of this high impedance pickups cut through the mix a lot of better then low impedance. It is also psychoacoustics.
In my opinion Alembic family basses are great tools slappers or for soloist in small assembles who can compromise sound of the other instruments because of his ego and sound (nothing bad with this) but played with fingers they are completely useless in the dense rock or pop mix - they either disappear or made mix dull with lack of punch. Thats my point of view (and also point of view of many session and famous bass players I have pleasure and honor to work with. Of course tone is in our hands and with great player and a lot of work of engineer You can use Your Alembic in any musical situation but typical ?Fender like? bass do the job with less effort and much better results.  
 
If You do not have great dynamics and articulation with passive fender like everybody will notice it with active Alembic You can hide it. Also with fender like bass (or stratocaster guitar) You sound like You  (JPJ, Jaco, Marcus Miller, Anthony Jackson Geddy Lee and many more all sound different because passive fender like instruments are very sensitive to articulation. With Alembic it is more a sound of Alembic than the player itself.  Even very different players sound similar on those basses.
 
Best Regards for All of You  
Blazej

blazej_domanski

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #42 on: June 26, 2009, 01:39:18 PM »
I am very interested in Yours opinion in this topic especially in Your experience with using Alembic basses in dense mixes.

bsee

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #43 on: June 26, 2009, 02:19:27 PM »
Wow, Blazej, couldn't disagree with your characterization of Alembic more.  My Alembics are far more responsive to my playing if I pluck near the bridge or over the end of the board as compared to the tonal variations I get from passively loaded basses.  I play 95% fingerstyle rock.   Bartolini guts are very good for me, and I have often found EMG stuff to be a little bit sterile,  I think EMG was very popular when active stuff was hitting the streets and maybe did an awful lot to create the prejudices people have with active systems.  
 
I don't dislike the passive tone, I just don't think you can knock Alembic.  I played for years with a five piece dual guitar group and never had a problem being heard through the mix.  I play with one guitarist now and cutting through isn't an issue, though I get great tone when I chord to thicken the sound on occasion while he solos.  Similar lines on a passive bass often sound muddied.  
 
Music isn't objective, so if it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you.  Strings are a huge part of the tone as well.  Alembics seem to me to be more variable in tone character based upon the strings you use.  I have tried some relatively thin round or compressed strings that sound completely anemic on the top strings with awful balance.  On the other hand, a string like the Chromes is very versatile and records wonderfully for a lot of styles.  
 
When you have so much sonic range, though, everyone will know it if you suck.  Passive basses are much more forgiving of mediocre chops, and maybe this factors into the whole discussion as well.
 
-bob

lbpesq

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Re: Yet another "Alembic in a recording studio" thread
« Reply #44 on: June 26, 2009, 02:56:24 PM »
I'm not an engineer and I have only a passing understanding of the science of sound, but I have attended hundreds of live music performances as well as spent thousands of hours playing in bands over the past 40+ years.  I do have a clear perception of what I hear.  In my experience the claim that passive instruments possess more clarity and punch than Alembics is ludicrous (and I don't mean the rapper).  To my ears the whole definition of the Alembic sound is based on the foundation of clarity and presence.  My favorite bass players (both to listen to and to play with) are the ones whose notes are clear and distinct, as opposed to those who create a low rumble that I feel more than hear.  And guess what?  The ones I like the best often play active basses, especially Alembics.  Just my $.02
 
Bill, tgo
 
(Message edited by lbpesq on June 26, 2009)