Author Topic: Jimmy J in Bass Player  (Read 977 times)

dadabass2001

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #30 on: August 29, 2009, 07:46:54 AM »
Which brings up another interesting  (to me) point...
I sometimes did/do my best ensemble playing in basement rehearsal spaces or to empty clubs. The kind of moments where you can break out in goosebumps because of the interplay.
Jimmy, do you remember any special musical collaborative moments that wound up on the cutting room floor or live only in memory now?
Mike
"The Secret of Life is enjoying the passage of Time"
 - James Taylor

terryc

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #31 on: August 30, 2009, 02:07:05 AM »
Pity, it was nice track, I best go and get the DVD then as there is some other great stuff on it.
Everyone does a crap performance at some stage but having it recorded can rub salt in the wounds though.
Personally I thought it was fine!

jacko

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #32 on: August 31, 2009, 07:35:31 AM »
Barrie, by sheer coincidence I've just come back from a couple of night on Skye. There are photos of the scenery (and the band) here
 
Graeme

JimmyJ

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #33 on: August 31, 2009, 09:06:05 AM »
Mike,
 
I have an old school way of thinking about this because it used to be that ALL live performance was meant to exist only in that moment for those in attendance.  In this day of endless cellphone video streaming (who would have thought?) the exclusive experience for the attending audience has kind of gone by the wayside.  Why bother going to a show when you can just watch your favorites on YouTube?  I don't actually understand why people at a concert feel the need to shoot video.  Why do that when you could just watch, listen and enjoy the experience while it's happening with whoever you came with...  I once saw a guy in the Louvre shooting video of the Mona Lisa.  He was standing 6 feet from the painting and only looking at it through the viewfinder...  Like I said, I'm old and it's an old way of thinking.
 
Every single gig has great moments.  With Holdsworth, the music itself is on the edge and all the musicians are trying to push the envelope at all times.  Within this format we individually have good and bad nights but there are always several cool moments.  If nothing else, Allan's other-worldly ad lib chordal introduction to the ballad Above And Below, different every night and amazing every night.  (And he says he can only do that in front of an audience...)
 
Anyway, the situation you describe, rehearsals or empty clubs, may just reflect your state of mind - when you are most relaxed, not worried about an audience but just concentrating on what is happening musically.  I think the trick is to not let the setting distract you and you may discover that these moments happen all the time.
 
Terry, you may find that Tokyo Dream never legally made it to dvd.  Seriously, Allan did not want it released in the first place.
 
cheers,
Jimmy J

David Houck

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #34 on: August 31, 2009, 10:40:04 AM »
Jimmy; for what it's worth, I disagree with your first sentence.  Instead of the word all, perhaps most would be more accurate, since recordings of live concerts have been commercially available for longer than we have been around to listen to them.  If the Rolling Stones' Mobile Sound Truck was parked outside a concert hall, chances are good that the artist performing that night did not intend for the performance to exist only for those who attended.  When The Who released Live At Leeds, I'm guessing the exclusive experience for those attending had already gone by the wayside.
 
And as for why go to a show if you can watch a video.  I went to see Eric Johnson a few years ago.  The bass player that night was Roscoe Beck.  I was excited to see both of them.  (My review of this show is here.) I never heard the bass; and the whole performance was way too loud.  Even during the bass solo, the sound quality was so poor I couldn't make out the notes he was playing.  So yes, I would much rather have seen a good quality video; at home I can at least control the volume.  Also, at this point in my life, I really don't find it comfortable to stand up in a crowd for hours at a time; so if I am going to see a band, I prefer to go to a venue where I know there is ample seating available with reasonably close views of the performers.  And then there is the cost; for most major performers, the cost of a DVD is far less than the cost of a ticket to the show.  And in my budget, cost is a major consideration.
 
On the other side however, I agree with your comments about the experience of a live performance, both from the band and audience perspectives.  I have experienced that in-the-moment communication among band members and between musicians and audience that makes a live performance the magical thing that it can be.  Seven or eight years ago I went to see Victor Wooten's band (his band, not the Flecktones).  It wasn't until halfway through the show that the soundguy got the bass dialed in; and in a Victor Wooten show, the bass is kind of important.  But I had arrived early enough to get a good seat, and once the sound was dialed in, the show was very enjoyable.
 
So for me, I guess the things that I would tend to look for are a small venue with good seating and a great sound system with people that know how to reproduce quality sound at a reasonable volume; and at a reasonable price.  Otherwise, I tend to stay at home watching videos with good sound and picture quality at volumes that I control, and with excellent seating.

keith_h

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #35 on: August 31, 2009, 01:16:02 PM »
While I don't agree all concerts are meant to be in the moment I think Jimmy has a point about all of the photos and videos audiences seem to make these days. I find it quite annoying to have cell phones and other cameras thrown up in front of my view while I am trying to follow the show. I can also say most of the audience shot videos I have seen are of very poor quality. If I had to judge the artist by these videos it would surely taint my opinion.  
 
Another thing that is different from a sanctioned recording is the fact that a particular show might not be representative of the artist. We all have bad days, nights or sound people so I think it should be up to the artist to not have that pop-up on Youtube or any other place on the internet. Not to start a tangent but I think part of this gets back to who owns the performance rights and the misbegotten belief (IMO) of the internet generation that everything should be free.  
 
Keith

David Houck

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #36 on: August 31, 2009, 01:44:33 PM »
I agree; and I should have stated that in my post.  Thanks for making that clear.

bsee

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #37 on: August 31, 2009, 02:17:27 PM »
With regard to rights and ownership, there is no doubt that should remain with the performers. On the other hand, I wouldn't have a problem with recording for personal playback a la DVR.  
 
I do have a problem with all the judging going on here, though. People take pics and videos on vacations to show friends and relatives who didn't come along or for recollection later on. Just because someone is shooting pics or video doesn't mean they aren't in the moment as well. Enjoy things your way and let others do the same unhindered as long as they aren't stomping on your rights. Unless you're a stalker, you have no idea what their goals or priorities might be.

keith_h

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #38 on: August 31, 2009, 03:20:29 PM »
Bob,
There is a difference today about those vacation pics and videos (or in my day films). Where at one time it was sitting ones living room sharing your vacation slides today they all to frequently end up on YouTube, Myspace/Facebook or any of the other social sites. This changes it from sharing a personal experience with friends into a public showing. How do you determine or control this to be a private as opposed to public event? You can't in the current structure other than the rights holder staking their claim.  
 
I'll admit I am somewhat jaded as I make my living off of software. This is one of those items where folks try all of the time to crack it and make it readily available to the public. This directly affects my source of income. I see the same thing in unauthorized recording and posting of a concert. After all what is a recording but another form of software. In the end it is taking potential income from the rights holder.
 
Personally I would love to take my 35mm SLR to concerts so I would have slides later on to help remember the show. However I am willing to forgo that for the consistent practice of no unauthorized pics or videos which I think makes it fair to all.  
 
In closing I would like to say I have nothing against groups such as The Dead who wish to make their sounds boards available or allow fans to record what they wish. On the other hand folks should not be upset by those artists that do not wish to be so free with their material.    
 
Keith

sonicus

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #39 on: August 31, 2009, 08:33:11 PM »
It looks like this discussion could very easily go the way of the definition of FAIR USE' under U.S copy right law; Sections 107 through 118 ,title-17 U.S code.    Perhaps ___________.

sonicus

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #40 on: August 31, 2009, 08:40:34 PM »
I am sorry if I am throwing embers into the dry leaves with my post # 288. This is a hot topic these days ________Very difficult to define .

JimmyJ

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #41 on: August 31, 2009, 11:51:02 PM »
Sorry, if this thread is turning too far left we can move elsewhere...
 
My previous post was a bit wonky and the first paragraph wasn't even my main point.  Let me retry...  Dave, of course, if a show is being recorded by the artist or group with the intention of releasing a live record or dvd then yeah, that night's audience will be sharing the experience with whoever buys a copy (and you would get to say I was there man!).  And it is also true that commercially released live performances are often more enjoyable than sitting in row 99 next to loud drunk singers in a lame sounding room...  I'm with you on all that!  
 
Bob, I'm not trying to be judgmental.  Personal use is one thing but public posting is kind of another.  If I have a bad night and it's immediately up on YouTube it's kind of like somebody taking a picture of you falling down drunk and posting a giant billboard of it on Main Street...  I believe most tickets to most events still say no photography or recording devices allowed.  I think what I'm trying to voice here comes down to artistic control and who actually owns a live performance.  If I buy a ticket to attend a concert it never crosses my mind to record it and share it in any way.  I don't feel like my ticket entitles me to any further ownership of that performance.  I just want to go HEAR it.  
 
Back in the old days when people SOLD bootlegs it was an obvious infringement on an artist's rights.  But YouTube is free, we don't expect it to be high quality audio or video, and it's not likely to stop a fan from buying the CD (iTunes, whatever), DVD or even going to the concert, so what's the harm?  I suppose you could say the advertisers on YouTube are making money at the artist's expense but that's a stretch.  Many artists don't care and  just consider it publicity.
 
Except our pal Allan is VERY sensitive about his performances and what is meant for public consumption.  Anybody who has been to his live shows knows that he sets such a high standard for himself that he is often apologizing to the audience after each song.  It's rare for him to enjoy a set.  In the end it's his music and his performance and we should respect his right to try to keep it under control.
 
Keith, I support what you do and have even paid a couple times for shareware that I use a lot.  Writing code is a heavy skill.  I was also going to mention The Dead as an exception to all the traditional rules.  They would actually rope off an area for people with recording rigs and encourage the free exchange of the resulting tapes.  That was unusual!
 
OK, bed...
Jimmy J

bsee

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #42 on: September 01, 2009, 09:04:00 AM »
Youtube used to be fairly aggressive about pulling copyrighted materials off the site. These days, it seems they are more likely to have an overlay ad to assist you in purchasing the tune from an online vendor. I'm not sure if they've gone through some sort of licensing contract with ASCAP to do this. The local bar that has cover bands through on a regular basis pays them a fee, so why shouldn't Youtube. Even so, it would seem that a performance the owner doesn't want published or sold shouldn't be.
 
I'm sure there's a fine line there, too. Regional and local bands would kill for enough people to see their videos for a following to develop. The publicity and exposure are plenty of payment to them. Fully established artists, on the other hand, mostly want to get paid for their work in cash, and there's nothing wrong with that.  
 
I do remember seeing all sorts of videos of people screwing up, getting into shouting matches with fans or otherwise embarrassing moments. Often, these would be up for a short period of time before being pulled.
 
So, what it eventually comes down to is who is responsible. If you want to enforce a no cameras/no recorders policy, then do so. Some may slip through anyway, but is anyone even trying to enforce the rules at shows these days? After that, it should be on the Youtubes of the world to ensure they can identify the posters of content. If copyrighted content is put on their site, it should be a no-brainer to identify the publisher and go after them. It shouldn't be necessary because people should respect the rights of others, but what are you going to do? It's a surprise to me how few videos end up on Youtube when you think about it. How many people go to concerts that only a couple videos find their way to the web.
 
I'd also say that everything in a performance is, by definition, meant for public consumption. I think what you mean, though, is that it isn't meant to be stored and replayed as part of a permanent record. There's good and bad in Allan's attitude about that. Everyone worth anything wants to give their best when they step out on the stage. Over the years, I'm sure there have been special nights when everything was clicking and songs soared beyond the norm. It's hard to live with the performances that follow and don't equal or exceed what has come before. On the other hand, that's the nature of improvisation. You'll live a sad life if you can't wrap your brain around that. I can't imagine playing where I couldn't enjoy a set for that moment in time and appreciate it for what it was. I might as well be digging ditches. As long as you didn't step on stage unprepared or planning to give 80%, there's never anything to apologize for. Put out an extra encore if it makes you feel better about the value you've given your audience. Stepping onto the stage at the start of the night with the plan to be better than ever is always a great thing, but leaving at the end of every night feeling dissatisfied can't be good. It happens on occasion, but sometimes you have to be satisfied with a great performance. They can't all be magical, or none of them would be.

jakebass

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #43 on: September 01, 2009, 10:58:19 AM »
Rights over showing stuff on youtube is a mire of opinion, and a difficult one to say straight that one school of thought has more integrity than another, but we should remember this:
The industry is in big trouble.
One of the main reasons for this is how easy it is to get stuff without paying for it, and the sad fact about that is that even the most highly principled individuals feel good about getting something for nothing (me included and I am a strong advocate of copyright law)  
For me it's less about well established artists getting even more money, which is one of the ridiculous arguments employed by those that are ready to steal copyrighted material, the fact that an artist has become wealthy through their work does not in my view justify a they don't need it response. And more about the general health of the industry. I feel that with less money in the industry less well known artists are really struggling to get the business support they need to get their stuff out there. I am MD for a fantastic singer songwriter based in London, she is recognised by many in the London scene as a major talent but attracting funding for her project is an exceptionally difficult task. One reason for this is the dire state of the industry due to copyright infringement.
I realise I have become a little tangential in my discourse but for me this issue is at the heart of the matters raised above.
Jake

JimmyJ

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Jimmy J in Bass Player
« Reply #44 on: September 01, 2009, 02:26:33 PM »
Great comments you guys.  
 
Yes the music business model has completely changed in the past few years. And though it was far from perfect (as far as I am concerned the big record companies completely deserve to crumble), what had worked for about 50 years has now been turned upside-down with the advent of digital formats, file sharing etc.  Observe the amazing scramble by the film industry to head off the same fate before download speeds catch up to the size of their product...
 
The UP side of the Big Fat Web is that bands and artists just starting up now have a place where you can check them out whether they are in the garage next door or on the other side of the world.  This is very cool!  All the MySpace bands seem to offer their work for free download so they're using this medium as a promo tool.  I have no idea how or if these artists will ever make a living in music but I'm sure the talented ones will rise up and hopefully find some reward for their hard work.  
 
It used to be touring was to promote the album but now I think it's the other way around.  Prince simply gave his CD away with the Sunday paper in the UK a while back...
 
Bob, there must be hundreds of employees at YouTube just to respond to claims of copyrighted, abusive or embarrassing material.  What a huge can of worms!  And you're right, with all the people that do go to shows there is not THAT much posted - unless something weird happens.  So most folks are just grabbing it for themselves and that's totally understandable.  I think the cat is out of the bag as far as enforcing the no cameras or recorders thing, and different artists have different views about it anyway.  The bit I don't understand is the feeling of entitlement that video they've shot at a concert is theirs to share with the public.  But never mind, seriously, I'm just being geezerly.
 
Allan's situation and attitude is unusual although I do know a few other musicians who, like him, are extremely hard on themselves.  The thing is, on his WORST night he plays many amazing things.  But his mind gets caught on any mistakes he may have made and that's all he can remember...  I never feel like the audience is disappointed, only Allan.  Part of the insanity is to be awed by what he just did and hear him say sorry.  He is the classic tortured artist but this is how he is wired and resulted in his becoming what he has become.  There is nobody else like him.  Welcome to Al's World.
 
Sorry for the thread twisting...  
Jimmy J