Away from my Alembics for too Long

[hammer]

Entering the week #4 of an international work trip that's taken me to Tel Aviv and Jerusalem in Israel; Tbilisi, Georgia, and most recently, Vanadzor, Dilijon, and Yerevan, Armenia.  I don't leave for home until next Wednesday. I never thought that being away from my Alembics for this long would be this hard. Listening to the local music has been great, but not having access to something I do for at least an hour ever day has been a lot more difficult than I thought.  I haven't been able to do much exercise either which I thought would be the more difficult of the two things, but not having access to "playing time" has been much worse. Needed to take temporarily take the photos of my Alembic collection off my home page and screen saver because they just kept reminding me of what I was missing.


On a totally different topic...


I use a Rob Allen fretless for most of the Bluegrass/New Grass playing I do. Although the group appreciated my Alembics they really wanted more of a traditional sound and the Allen used with tapewounds does provide that tone.  However, it is certainly not an Alembic with respect to its play-ability and it's a really difficult shift to transition to from any of my Alembics.  To my surprise, its not the fretted to fretless that throws me as much as the body size and weight (or lack thereof) of the bass.  Compared to the Alembics it feels like a toy.  So my question for those of you who play fretless Alembics is whether when one uses the appropriate strings one can get a reasonable facsimile of an acoustic tone?  None of the players I have had the opportunity to hear play fretless Alembics live have used tapewounds so I'm wondering if anyone has experience with this and the tone they get.


And yes, this means I might be thinking of adding another Alembic to the stable although this might be a case of "absence making the heart grow fonder."

[edwardofhuncote]

Brian,

An upright bass is such a specific sound... there just isn't much else like it. So far, the electric uprights I have tried left me with a somewhat neutral opinion too... the sound was okay, but for about the same amount of effort required, I can just plug in my upright. There's a Classico for sale less than 50 miles from where I'm drinking coffee this morning, and the one thing that stops me from going to play it is knowing the $15K hang tag puts it out of reach. (I should still go... just to say I did) 

I haven't ever tried any of the tape-wounds on my Alembics, but I did have them on a Godin A-5 fretless once, and that was probably the closest I ever got to emulating a believable upright-ish sound from any bass guitar. And honestly, I think it was more the guitar than the strings, as I could do basically the same thing with any flats. My biggest gripe was the tape-wounds always felt either sticky or greasy... never got to a happy place with them, and eventually parted with the bass. (sometimes wish I'd kept that one) 

I also have played Rick Turner's 'Renaissance' basses strung with TI AcoustiCores, and while it does come off as 'acoustic' tone, in my opinion, it's really more about how the instrument responds dynamically to how it's being played. Something about the interaction between the piezo bridge and those bronze wound nylon core strings, makes it like playing a giant classical guitar. It sorta' tricks your ears into thinking it sounds acoustic. Adding a foam mute helps, but there's still no way it passes for an upright. That isn't meant as a slap at RT or meant to say it won't work... in some ways, the Renaissance also has its own sound, with nothing quite like it. I have read of guys that strung these with tape-wounds, and swear it sounds like an upright... I remain doubtful. I imagine this is similar to the boat you're in with the Rob Allen... the sound is close enough, but the precise nature of an extreme over-build we're used to just isn't there.

Not having heard what your bluegrass/new-grass group is doing, I do get the how and the why that some might need a more 'acoustic' flavor. I can tell you firsthand, I'm doing exactly that genre' every weekend down here in Virginia. My new Custom fretless (currently strung with TI Jazz Flats) is patiently teaching me how to fit in right where it belongs. I find (unsurprisingly) favoring the neck pickup slightly about 60/40, and keeping the extreme highs rolled off, then adjusting the right hand position and attack is getting me close enough that the bass presence is felt in a positive, but not overbearing way. I call it- being passively in charge of the pocket, which of course is the bass player's job in a bluegrass group. Honestly, I think the HGB guys couldn't care less which bass I play, but they do often compliment how I sound back there when I happen to be playing the Alembics. So there's that. 

All that probably isn't too helpful, but I know exactly what you mean... after playing our Alembics, nothing else feels quite the same, even very nice basses from some pretty gifted builders. 

One final thought: Maybe you could retro-fit a Roland synth pickup, or something similar to one of your current Alembics and see if a blend would get you there... I know it's been done. Come to think of it - there's at least one piezo-equipped Alembic out there. Maybe a chat with Mica about that, or some other options is in order. 

Safe travels home... 

[CaseyVancouver]

When you say 'acoustic tone' I assume you mean upright not acoustic bass guitar.

My two cents...
I have not found anything but an upright sound like an upright. A good upright has a ring to it as well as a deepness. Electrics sound like electrics.

I use DR Legend stainless flat wounds on my fretless 34" Alembic. It sounds like a fretless electric, certainly not an acoustic anything.  The amp makes a huge dif to it's sound. The fretless sounds good with my modern amps but not so good with my Ampeg tube b15n. My Fender Pre is deep and ballsy with an 800rms head & Powerhouse 410 but the Alembic is too light a sound with the same amp.

If you want an upright sound you gotta use an upright. If you play a great electric bass, enjoy it with pride and ignore the band mates who want you to sound like a different instrument. You can't make a fretless electric sound like an upright anymore than make a ukulele sound like a banjo, but you can make electric sound like a great bass.

[rv_bass]

For what it's worth, I can get my stock '67 Starfire bass with Pyramid flats to sound a bit like an acoustic upright bass, not exacltly, but similar.  It just has a hollow wooden sound, and the frets actually allow me to get that raspy, clanky upright sound as well.  I wonder if the age and dryness of the wood contributes to the acoustic-like tone too.  I use it a lot for jazz because of the acoustic-like tone.

[CaseyVancouver]

Hey this reminds me of a long gone Vancouver bassist 'Cuddles' Johnson!

He was a first call guy for sessions, tv and big band society gigs and a real character. With his volume pedal and Fender bass he would boot the volume pedal loud to quiet on each note simulating an upright,  for the swing tunes!

[hammer]

To clarify for everyone.  The group doesn't really insist on an upright tone nor are they looking for an acoustic guitar. Rather, they are seeking for a sound that blends in well and compliments the other pieces (acoustic guitar, banjo, mandolin, & fiddle).  They know that I have not played upright since my college days and have neither the money to purchase a Classico nor the car to lug around an upright. I agree with them that the traditional Alembic sound (even though I play TI flats only) doesn't really match what we are doing well. 

The group is perfectly happy with the sound I get out of the Rob Allen with tapewounds it's just that, after playing Alembic, when I play the Allen I feel like I'm playing with a toy. So...the real thing here is that I just don't enjoy playing the Allen as much as I do the any of my Alembics. As a result, I find myself practicing my bass lines on my Alembics rather than what I should be practicing them on, the RA.  I should state that for those of you who don't know RA basses, they are very well put together and after auditioning the Rob Allen Mb-2 against a Renaissance I clearly preferred the former for its tone.

So I guess the question is whether I could get a similar sound to the Rob Allen (which would please my bandmates) while playing a fretless Alembic (which would be far more enjoyable for me to play).

[edwardofhuncote]

What are some examples of stuff you guys are doing, and what instrumentation Brian? Are we talking full-on New Grass Revival, or rock covers done bluegrass-style, or something else? (I'm doing a little of both, with some Grateful Dead in between)

This may be as simple as black tape-wounds on one of your Alembics, (and some judicious twisting of the knobs) for an experiment.

*the natural evolution of course being a fretless Alembic, which is where you were headed anyway.

[cozmik_cowboy]

Closest thing I ever heard to an upright (keeping in mind it was on the computer through decent cans) is the Gold Tone Micro Bass fretless.

Peter

[hammer]

Gregory:

Sounds like the music selection has some similarities. Instrumentation is almost fully of the stringed variety (acoustic guitar, banjo, mandolin, fiddle, and bass). Occasionally, a keyboard player will sit in more because he's a friend of the fiddle player whose often hanging out and listening to us than a regular.

We are all over the board with what we do with some interpretations of basic rock (Wild Horses by the Stones; Neal Young's Acoustic stuff; some of Dead's softer/country-like songs), New Grass (Trampled by Turtles; Dead Man Winter; Punch Brothers; Greensky Bluegrass; Railroad Earth, etc.; just about anything David Grisman has ever done (mention a song he does at a practice and you'll never hear a "no"), to more pieces by both new and old traditional groups such as The Seldom Scene; Balsam Range; The Dillards.  Throw in a decent range of traditional and non-traditional folk (Dylan, Seeger, The Pines; Trail Magic; Mumford & Sons) and that's the cornucopia of what we attempt to do.  I'm still learning the history of bluegrass and its more recent versions as I definitely didn't come in to this group of players with the backgrounds they had.  We've got a graduate of Berklee in the late 70s, a pediatric trauma surgeon, a guy who originally played traditional Czech folk music on fiddle, to me on bass.   

On some of our songs the fretted Alembics with TI Flats sound great with a bit more palm muting than usual. Sometimes with no real changes needed in tonal quality and other times with a bit of tweaking. On others, about 50% of what we do, I've been using the Rob Allen and tonally like the sound but just don't like playing a non-Alembic.  The strangest thing about the bass is that it's supposedly a 35 long scale, but when played, feels shorter than my SCs.

[edwin]

Pyramid flats with a bit of foam under the strings by the bridge should get you in the ballpark.

[edwardofhuncote]

That sounds like a cool gig.   

I don't see any reason you couldn't make your Alembics work here... I suspect it's the high-end articulation that isn't fitting into that music. Not that it's bad... just extra/unnecessary information for your role in that ensemble.

With this preface; I too have TI Jazz Flats on all three of my Alembics... try the following, in various combinations:

1. Roll the filter(s) back to about 40-50% open, Q's in off position.
2. Favor the neck pickup a little more than the bridge.
3. Try a foam mute as close to the bridge as possible, but not too tight. (see attached picture of mine)
4. Play right-hand up closer to the fingerboard. That will soften the attack.

You may find some combination of these that works better than others. Good luck and happy hunting. 

*hat-tip to Edwin on Pyramids. They are definitely darker... I just prefer TI's overall.

[CaseyVancouver]

The group doesn't really insist on an upright tone nor are they looking for an acoustic guitar. Rather, they are seeking for a sound that blends in well and compliments the other pieces (acoustic guitar, banjo, mandolin, & fiddle). 

So I guess the question is whether I could get a similar sound to the Rob Allen (which would please my bandmates) while playing a fretless Alembic (which would be far more enjoyable for me to play).

There's your answer!

[gtrguy]

I often put foam on a bass when I am recording it. I also often end up using a pick as well.