Bob's Custom Signature Deluxe

Started by mica, March 31, 2005, 02:03:05 PM

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jacko

Yep, That was probably a bit extreme but the suggestion still stands. How about tucked below the rest of the controls (looking down whilst playing that is)
 
graeme

bsee

That would be a possibility as long as it isn't close enough to the edge that it would get a thigh-tap while playing seated.  Worse yet, it might get caught on a loose pair of pants in the same playing situation, and that could be pretty ugly.  I'm trying to avoid all of the bad design characteristics I have experienced during 30 years of playing.  
 
When all is said and done, the side jack is probably the easiest option (least hassle, most straightforward, easiest to describe) for Alembic to execute on.  We'll find out soon...
 
-Bob

flaxattack

and you said you werent gonna make changes????
lmao
you may not last through this week@@@@@
serenity now!!!
:-)
get the wood backplates or i will torture you throughout eternity!!!!...haha
youre gonna find the money...and then it will be tooo late....

bsee

Production hasn't begun yet, Jeff.  Once we're signed off to start the build, all changes cease unless they ask my opinion on something in the design.  Then I sit back for a few months with the occasional photo fix until it's ready for delivery.  The biggest delay I will have is gold plating the hardware.  Other than that, there's no series electronics or custom inlays that would add complexity.
 
-Bob

jacko

Bob. I've just re-read (and understood ) your comments about the side mounted jack. I'd go for this option. The jacksocket on my rogue is absolutely flush with the bodywork - no socket plate or nuts to catch on- and as you'd expect, the craftmanship in this area is spot on. On the Epic, i have the front mounted jack and always feel the cable detracts somewhat from the look of the bass. i use straight jacks though so the cable does stick out a fair bit. Again just my thoughts.
 
graeme

bsee

Nothing to say - just a test post checking the behavior of this new threading model...

bsee

Hey there Bass fans....
 
Just got off the phone with Valentino and nailed the final details.  There were no meaningful changes to spec, just clarifications.  That is to say, I backed off on the continuous wood backplates and will stick with the gold-plated brass.
 
Also, 3774 was recommended as a back wood with the bookmatch reversed from the wood bank photo such that the ring contours follow the body.
 
The question of LED switch positioning was resolved by looking at the position of jacks on a bass with Series electronics.  The output jack on my bass will go where the 5-pin is on a series instrument and the LED toggle will go where the 1/4 jack is usually located.
 
The neck dimensions should hopefully be more like 1.5 at the nut with a string spacing at 2.15 at the bridge.  That works out to about 18mm spacing, wide enough to slap and narrow enough for speed.  I definitely am not a fan of 19mm (2.25) spacing.  Also, neck laminate width is standardized, so there was no room for tweaking there.
 
The pickup positions will mirror what would be found on a Series bass, absent the dummy.
 
The headstock is confirmed to be a K Crown, very dark wood and symmetrical.  The headstock sandwich will be whatever they give me...
 
The bridge block will be present.
 
The question of insert-mounted straplocks remains open.  Valentino is investigating.
 
There remains a miniscule possibility that there will be a custom inlay.  We will see....
 
That's all for now...

bsee

Highlighted in red are the adjustments/clarifications that came out of my phone conversation with Valentino yesterday:
 
 
NECK  
scale: 30.75  
strings: 4  
7-piece through body neck MAP|PH|MAP|EB|MAP|PH|MAP  
fingerboard: ebony with abalone inlays 1.5x2.15 (like Stanley's)  
 1.5 is the nut width, 2.15 is the string spacing, center-to-center, at the bridge (approx 18mm)
side markers: Red LEDs with 2 amber each @ 12th and 24th with internal dimmer pot
peghead: K Crown, bevelled  
 This is the headstock that is narrower near the neck to go with the narrow nut, right?  Chip's choice on headstock sandwich to go with the rest of the woods and show off the bevel.  Very dark and symmetrical peghead face to bring out the hardware and logo
 
BODY  
Sandwich:  
Coco Bolo top [3766 approximately per my template and adjusted to Chip's preference]  
Maple pinstripe  
Purpleheart laminate  
Maple pinstripe  
Vermilion core, hollow  
Maple pinstripe  
Purpleheart laminate  
Maple pinstripe  
Coco Bolo Back [3774 with bookmatch reversed and the dark curve around the swirly area following the body contour.  I'd like to see a template on this before it is cut, but I can live without it.]
 
shape: Small Standard, no tummy or elbow carving  
 
ROUTING:  
pickups: 2 FatBoy  
truss rod cover: 4R (standard for SC model)  
 clarification: Series pickup positioning, so the truss rod cover is small
backplates: brass  
electronics: 2 volume, 2 filter, 2-3 position Q switches  
 The positions of the LED switch and 1/4 jack will be reversed with the jack closer to the neck
 
FINISH:  
polyester gloss with satin neck feel  
 
SETUP:  
logo: silver no script  
hardware: gold plated  
strap anchor: gold straplocks  
 mounted using threaded inserts rather than screws, if possible
strings: .045-.065-.080-.105  
 
case: hardshell

mica

Running the nut width and bridge center to center spacing you supplied through my handy dandy calculator, here's what I get:
 
(dimensions are all in inches 18mm=.708in)
##################################################
id = bsee
scale length = 30.75
string dia. 1=.045 2=.065 3=.080 4=.105  
 
at nut end:
      fingerboard width = 1.5
  treble edge allowance = .15
    bass edge allowance = .15
   string center 1 to 2 = 0.375
   string center 2 to 3 = 0.375
   string center 3 to 4 = 0.375
spacing between 1 and 2 = 0.32
spacing between 2 and 3 = 0.3025
spacing between 3 and 4 = 0.2825
 
at bridge end:
  treble edge allowance = .15
    bass edge allowance = .15
   string center 1 to 2 = .708
   string center 2 to 3 = .708
   string center 3 to 4 = .708
spacing between 1 and 2 = 0.653
spacing between 2 and 3 = 0.6355
spacing between 3 and 4 = 0.6155
    string edge to edge = 2.199
(projected) fingerboard width at bridge = 2.499
 
fingerboard width at nut     = 1.5
fingerboard width at 24th fret = 2.24925
fingerboard width at 25th fret = 2.26326739040775
fingerboard length             = 23.4939662212595
 
##################################################
(Edge allowance is the distance from the outside edge of the string to the outside of the fingerboard. I used our standard .15 since there wasn't anything different specified.)
 
I just want to bring to your attention that the fingerboard will be 1.5x2.25
 
Just for reference, here's the numbers with 19mm(.748in) center to center bridge spacing:
##################################################
id = bsee19
scale length = 30.75
string dia. 1=.045 2=.065 3=.080 4=.105  
 
at nut end:
      fingerboard width = 1.5
  treble edge allowance = .15
    bass edge allowance = .15
   string center 1 to 2 = 0.375
   string center 2 to 3 = 0.375
   string center 3 to 4 = 0.375
spacing between 1 and 2 = 0.32
spacing between 2 and 3 = 0.3025
spacing between 3 and 4 = 0.2825
 
at bridge end:
  treble edge allowance = .15
    bass edge allowance = .15
   string center 1 to 2 = .748
   string center 2 to 3 = .748
   string center 3 to 4 = .748
spacing between 1 and 2 = 0.693
spacing between 2 and 3 = 0.6755
spacing between 3 and 4 = 0.6555
    string edge to edge = 2.319
(projected) fingerboard width at bridge = 2.619
 
fingerboard width at nut     = 1.5
fingerboard width at 24th fret = 2.33925
fingerboard width at 25th fret = 2.3549511610273
fingerboard length             = 23.4939662212595

bsee

hmmm....
 
Initially, this looked like information overload, but it made me think.  I am looking at the '82 Spoiler I am playing today and the bridge spacing seems even narrower than what we discussed.  The rough measurement is about 2 center to center across the bridge.  That works out to what, about 17mm spacing?  I am pretty sure I don't want anything much wider spaced than this, but am I likely to really notice the difference?  Even then, will the narrower nut even it all out in the area where it matters, around the neck pickup where most of the plucking is happening?
 
The battery in my digital caliper is dead, so I will get a replacement and provide precise measurements tomorrow.  Can we delay this until I get a measurement and confirm?
 
I promise a definitive answer by the time you all arrive for work on Monday, and that will be my proverbial final answer...
 
Thanks!

mica

It's likely the Spoiler you have is set up with side-to side spacing at the bridge unless it was special ordered or altered.  
 
Our typical setup is with center to center spacing at the nut for aiming at the center of the string while fretting and side to side at the bridge, for aiming at the edge of the string for finger or pick. We've found that people that slap alot prefer center to center at the bridge too, since they are aiming for the center of the string with their slapping hand. Sometimes, a player starts with a bass that's center to center, and just gets accustomed to it.  
 
I mention this because we like to make sure you will really be happy with center to center spacing at the bridge.  
 
As far as noticing the difference, this is highly dependent on you. Since you previously expressed a preference for 18mm over 19mm, I would guess you would be as sensitive for a similar size shift down. I'm probably not as sensitive on a bass, but I can't play anything other than a standard size piano key, so I understand how one can become dependent on spacing.  
 
Just for reference, here's the numbers for a typical Spoiler:
##################################################
id = SMB4 Side to Side @ bridge (standard)
scale length = 32
string dia. 1=.045 2=.065 3=.080 4=.105  
 
at nut end:
      fingerboard width = 1.75
  treble edge allowance = .15
    bass edge allowance = .15
   string center 1 to 2 = 0.458333333333333
   string center 2 to 3 = 0.458333333333333
   string center 3 to 4 = 0.458333333333333
spacing between 1 and 2 = 0.403333333333333
spacing between 2 and 3 = 0.385833333333333
spacing between 3 and 4 = 0.365833333333333
 
at bridge end:
  treble edge allowance = .15
    bass edge allowance = .15
   string center 1 to 2 = 0.655
   string center 2 to 3 = 0.6725
   string center 3 to 4 = 0.6925
spacing between 1 and 2 = .6
spacing between 2 and 3 = .6
spacing between 3 and 4 = .6
    string edge to edge = 2.095
(projected) fingerboard width at bridge = 2.395
 
fingerboard width at nut     = 1.75
fingerboard width at 24th fret = 2.2422045
fingerboard width at 25th fret = 2.2595008
fingerboard length             = 24.4490054985465
 
.6in=15.2mm
 
I also ran the figures if the Spoiler fingerboard dimensions were set up with center to center at the bridge:
##################################################
id = SMB4 Center to Center @ bridge
scale length = 32
string dia. 1=.045 2=.065 3=.080 4=.105  
 
at nut end:
      fingerboard width = 1.75
  treble edge allowance = .15
    bass edge allowance = .15
   string center 1 to 2 = 0.458333333333333
   string center 2 to 3 = 0.458333333333333
   string center 3 to 4 = 0.458333333333333
spacing between 1 and 2 = 0.403333333333333
spacing between 2 and 3 = 0.385833333333333
spacing between 3 and 4 = 0.365833333333333
 
at bridge end:
  treble edge allowance = .15
    bass edge allowance = .15
   string center 1 to 2 = .685
   string center 2 to 3 = .685
   string center 3 to 4 = .685
spacing between 1 and 2 = 0.63
spacing between 2 and 3 = 0.6125
spacing between 3 and 4 = 0.5925
    string edge to edge = 2.13
(projected) fingerboard width at bridge = 2.43
 
fingerboard width at nut     = 1.75
fingerboard width at 24th fret = 2.26
fingerboard width at 25th fret = 2.26954136684411
fingerboard length             = 24.4490054985465
 
.685in=17.3mm
 
Yeah, it's even more information overload, but it may help you with your final answer. The work on the neck won't be started until we get this important decision completed.

bsee

Mica-
 
This is great info to put the other data in perspective.  I suspect the Spoiler is done side-to-side.  A rough measure makes it appear to be about 16mm between the centers of the G and D, and more like 17mm between the E and A, maybe a hair more.  
 
I have a few other basses that I used to find a bit more comfortable to play than the Spoiler when I played non-Alembics.  I play the Spoiler for tone more than feel...
 
I think another reason for slappers to prefer center-to-center spacing would be that it provides extra space in the areas where a finger would be inserted to pop.  Space is less critical between the low strings unless you're pulling off advanced moves like double-thumbing.  At least, with my limited slap skills, this would be true...
 
Thanks again, and have a great weekend!

bsee

Mica-
 
Okay, I have played several instruments and measured them.  Here are some numbers I came out with:
 
1. On a 34 Spector fretless, the nut is 1.7 and the bridge is at 17.9 center-to-center.  I really like the feel in the picking area on this one.
 
2. On a custom-built 1983 Dean with 34 scale, the nut is 1.5 and the bridge spacing is about .685 side to side.  The picking area is a bit wide-spaced on this one.
 
3. The '82 Spoiler at 32 scale appears to have an uneven bridge spacing.  That is probably because it was set up side to side and now has a different guage string set on it.  It was probably set up as standard .6 spacing and it is maybe the slightest bit too tight for slap play.
 
I tested on a few others as well, but there was nothing particularly enlightening.  Well, maybe that it is nearly impossible (for me) to slap on a standard-spaced Alembic five.  I think it measured at about .5 at the bridge.
 
My main focus is string spacing in the primary picking/slapping area.  I'd like it as narrow as possible to speed picking (finger or pick styles) while wide enough to slap comfortably.  I believe that the narrower nut spacing will have a small impact on this as compared to the regular spacing.  If my math is correct, the strings should be about .02 closer together at the 24th fret with a 1.5 nut as opposed to the 1.75 nut.
 
My final answer is this:
 
1. I definitely want the strings spaced center to center rather than side to side.
 
2. The 1.5 nut should be great.
 
3. Bridge spacing anywhere between 17.5 and 18mm should work for me.  I think the standard spacing set up for center to center, as you posted above, is maybe a hair too narrow with the 1.5 nut.  Since it appears you like to work in inches, I think an even .7 center to center should be perfect.
 
I also paid some attention to neck thickness and found that the Spoiler feels great.  As such, I am hoping that it is a standard neck depth that doesn't need to be specified.  I know that the neck on the Epic 5 I played recently felt chunky to me.  The few necks that I measured were between .82 and .9 thick near the nut and between .88 and .95 thick around the 12th fret.  The Spector was the thin end of the range and the Spoiler was the thick end.  The Dean was a bit thicker and felt it, probably because it's one piece of maple and needs the strength.  Even then, the Dean was very playable, so I think the dimension would have to be extreme to be an issue.
 
Mica, I will send you some other information via email and you can take that into consideration as well.
 
Thanks
-Bob

jacko

Bob
My rogue has a 'standard' neck and is much slimmer than my old epic. The satin finish makes it much faster than the epic's gloss finish aswell.
just my tuppence worth
 
graeme

bsee

Well, the other info I sent to Mica last week was that I made a deal to buy a bass very similar in spec to my custom order.  It turns out that the neck on it is even narrower than anticipated.  
 
It is 1.5 nut width, but the spacing at the bridge is 1.75 center-to-center from E to G.  The individual strings are spaced at about .53 side-to-side.  This bass is very playable, and it will adjust my thinking to be narrower at the bridge.  Right now, I am thinking .65 (16.5mm) center-to-center for a total bridge width of 1.95 E to G.  
 
There's really no substitute for playing the instrument set up as you want it.  I would never have guessed from the other basses I played that I could go this narrow and be comfortable.
 
For the neck depth, this instrument is thicker as it moves up the neck than the Spoiler.  The basses are about the same .82 at the first fret, but this bass gets much closer to a full inch by the 12th fret.  I would rather it were just a little thinner up the neck, like .93-.95.  As for the profile, I think this bass would be great if you just took the exisiting neck and flattened it out a little by shaving some of what is there in the middle for more of an oval result.  It's great the way it is, but a little flatter would make it perfect.
 
Does this all make sense?
 
-Bob