Mica & Val, thanks for taking the pictures.
 
Mica, I don't understand why, but accept that you feel no one's gonna provide me a definitive answer.  The question assumed all other things being equal.  Presumably the same person using the same strap holding each instrument the same way would find each model to require more or equal or less reach.
 
At any rate, I'm a little reassured that there are now 3 people (you, Bob, and Val) saying they're similar, and no voices saying (thus far) that the Balance K requires more reach.  Vals comment that the Balance K seemed to require less reach was the most encouraging comment.
 
Still, at this point, I'd like to formally ask about options & pricing for possibly slightly extending the horn.
 
Please ask Val or Susan about the pistol grip horn on Raging Bass.  How much extra is this, and how much longer is it?  Can you offer a simpler, less expensive longer-horn option?  (The pistol-grip looks a little fancy/pricy... I'm mainly interested in function... something to add just a little length... maybe an inch or so.)
 
I'm really torn on this; I was hoping for a definitive answer, but if such can not be provided, then it basically leaves me with one of 3 choices:
 
1. Extend the horn length a little -if it entails little to no additional labor/cost;
 
2. Just go with the standard Balance K and hope that it will be similar to a 34 inch Europa -and require less reach than my 35 inch Europa.
 
3. Switch to a 34 inch Europa body-which would be a guarenteed way of making sure it would require less reach than my 35 inch Europa.
 
Option 3 seems like the surest way to eliminate the reach concern; however, as much as I'd like to have another Europa, I'd still prefer the Balance K.
 
So I need to find out about extended horn options and prices, and I guess I'll have to then think about it a little.
 
Thanks again for everything!
 
Mark
 
By the way, that Balance K is unbelieveably stunning!  Burl Redwood?

And option 4: pay extra for pistol-grip or another extension, depending on how much!

That's the thing, all other things aren't equal. The most important thing is how you hold the bass. It's not a given that you will hold two basses of different shapes the same way that let's say Valentino holds the same two basses. The best answer to the question is an educated guess, and that is they are very similar.  
 
I'm certain the pistol grip will be less expensive than a new custom body shape. Making the horn bigger means new plans. When Valentino is answering your other princing questions, he'll address the pistol grip as well, and that should help you decide on which of your 4 options to choose. He's usually here around 11:00 or so, so he'll be contacting you around 12:00 I suppose.  
 
And, yes, that Balance K is Burl Redwood. It's going to Will Gunn Guitars very soon. I agree, it's gorgeous.

I wanted to understand why you wanted more screws than we've used on most of the instruments we've made (including Trip's 8-string).  
 
I can't think of a single tailpiece anchor screw failing since I started working here in 1987. I've never run across a repair to an instrument because of a failed anchor in the files as I've researched histories. I hope this helps put your mind at ease with over 13,000 successful 3-anchor tailpieces tailpieces.
 
It's easy to say that adding a couple of screws equals a couple of minutes of time, you're correct only about the installation of the tailpiece. Someone still needs to machine it.  
 
Imposition? That's not the characterization I meant to convey. Even something that seems like a minor detail (remember our conversation about bookmatching the top and not the accent laminates to center?) can have consequences as far as how much time is needed to address it. It's just custom, and that's waht we're here for.  
 
On the Dire Wolf tailpiece, there's a practical and decorative reason for four anchor screws. Note the space between the D string retainer and the top edge of the tailpiece is too small to hold the screw. One off-center screw would look cock-eyed, so four it is.
 
I'll find out how much additional time is needed to mill the holes and let you know. It may be small, and if it's within your budget and makes you feel better, then it's probably a good idea.

Thanks Mica, I appreciate it, and no, you didn't convey any sense of imposition.  But it's something that I want to be proactive about on my part.
 
I want to stick with the bird, but I do like the bar; it might be the case that you can't do the bird, only the bar?  Or that doing 5 screws on the bar would be x$ but 5x$ on the bird?
 
Since you're looking into this for me, it might be good to find out IF 5-screws could be done on BOTH the Bird and Bar, and then, if the cost/price would be the same.  My intuition is that the Bar might be quicker/easier/cheaper to to than the Bird (assuming the Bird can be done without any issues -in the first place).
 
Thanks again.

Hey Mark. I'm honoured that you've put my rogue up there alongside Rick and Barry's examples. Ricks DW is incredible and Barry's was one of the examples I used when I spoke to Mica about patterns. You can rest assured that she'll choose something stunning for you.
 
Graeme

I've been going over and over all the pictures, postings, and testimonials regarding the Balance K, and other things, to come to a decision ASAP -but the right decision.
 
Just to let you know, I'll be at work/out until probably after 6 pm today.
 
Didn't see any emails yet, but I'm becoming increasingly un-interested in altering the horn of going for the pistol grip.  But I'd still like the price for the extended grip/horn.
 
Thanks, Mark.

Well, I know what I want.  For sure ?or at least as sure as I can be.  I?ve spent nearly every waking hour for the past several days dwelling on it, and looking over and over every post I could find on the site about the Balance K in Showcase, FTC, and the Custom Archives.  I?ve looked carefully through the comments and testimonials; I?ve also looked at Europas, and I?ve contemplated.  I?ve carefully considered numerous alternatives; I?ve considered pros & cons, and tradeoffs and risks; I?ve evaluated what I want detailwise, and how individual specific things fit into a hierarchy.  And I?ve figured it out.
 
I figured it out by process of elimination.  As much as I love the Europa shape ?and that?s quite a bit- I want something different from it.  I simply love the Balance K, and the only thing affecting that is the concern over reach.  I very seriously considered asking for a Rogue body; the Rogue was designed for a 35 inch scale, and has that extra long horn which I?ve been told gives it the best ?reach? of any Alembic body, so a 34 should definitely have to require significantly less reach than my 35 inch Europa.   But as I looked at Rogue after Rogue, I just concluded that the shape is not for me aesthetically.  The only reason I?d choose one is for function; and while I do appreciate the beauty and function of the form, it?s just doesn?t do it for me appearancewise, and I like it FAR less than the Balance K.
 
So I go back to the Balance K.  Now I think again about switching to the original 33 inch scale again; but the string tension is an issue.  Now, per Val?s recommendation, I attempted AGAIN to just? find information about Thomastik bass strings, ?cause supposedly the have great medium scale strings, so I thought, ?okay, despite the disadvantage of having to rely on very expensive & more complicated to get strings, if they?re reliable, it could just solve the problem.  Anyway, I spent WAY too much time trying to just find info on them and how to get them, and I just wasted time and gave myself a headache.  Their strings must be pretty good if people continue to buy them when someone who wants to has such a hard time doing it.  Whatever.  Suffice it to say, they?re ruled out.  So that brings me back to the 34.  I looked at the tailpiece? there?s very little additional room to move it closer than standard to the Omega, just a millimeter or two, nothing to be gained by asking you to move everything in a millimeter or two.
 
I thought about sacrificing the Omega, and have you bury the fingerboard, that is move the peghead closer to the tailpiece.  This was the best option so far.  Switch to the point, and move the neck in.  That way, I have less reach for sure.  But I?d have to sacrifice that Omega? and I really love the Omega.  I like the Point better than the Rogue; and about the same as the Europa, but it would score points for being different (than the Europa).
 
So it comes down to a contest between the Balance K Omega, and the Balance K point.  I looked at numerous Balance K Omegas, and 3 different point versions I could find? over and over again? and I concluded that I find the Balance K Omega to be FAR more exciting/pleasing aesthetically.
 
So I want the Balance K Omega.  Like the original plan.  But what about the reach?  Well, though I don?t completely understand it, I respect and accept your expertise, and your statement that you don?t think anyone can give me a definitive answer.  I consider your and Bob?s statement that the reach is ?similar? (between a 34? Europa and a 34? Balance K).  I tentatively assume that it should therefore require at least slightly less reach than my 35? 8-String.  I?ve found several testimonials regarding how ?ergonomic? and ?easy to play? the Balance K is.  And I think that, with a much smaller neck/more narrow neck, and with ?only? 1 Ebony laminate, and a smaller peghead, the overall feel? the other factors besides reach & scale length MUST surely make this bass MUCH easier to play.  So, I?m gonna take a chance with the reach issue, because, by process of elimination, I?m not willing to risk/sacrifice anything else.
 
I spend a LOT of time trying to find medium-scale strings, and, after looking about 300 different string offerings, and google-ing galore, I was unable to find even ONE set of medium-scale 6-string strings ?from ANYONE!!!  That sealed the deal on a 34 being the thing.  I?m not going to order an instrument with a medium or medium-long scale when apparently no strings exist for them (or are this hard to find)!
 
After reviewing Val?s ?Bird of Prey?, I AM REITERATING MY INTEREST IN THE ?PISTOL GRIP?.  I know I?ve seen more than that example, and ?Raging Bass?, but those were the only ones I could find.  Now the ?Pistol Grip? on Raging Bass didn?t grab me that much, especially as far as fitting in the the aesthetic nuances of the Balance K, but after looking at it a bunch of times, the obvious hit me (aided by the explicit comments that) that bass ISN?T a Balance K.  Then I remembered Val?s Bird of Prey having the Pistol Grip, and when I looked at HIS/that example, THAT Pistol Grip looks MUCH cooler, and looks like it adds a good inch or more while flowing better/fitting in better ?with the Balance K Omega.
 
SO I WANT THE BALANCE K OMEGA ?LIKE ORIGINALLY PLANNED? but I?m also VERY INTERESTED in the option of adding the ?Pistol Grip?, and request pricing for this essential detail, as well as an estimate of added length.  A really nice touch would be ?if it?s not too much trouble- to draw me a little simple mockup of what it would look like on a REGULAR (non-pointy variety) of the Balance K Omega ?maybe even superimposed OVER the regular, to really maximize the ?seeing? of the difference.
 
To be clear, I?m gonna stick with the BALANCE K OMEGA REGARDLESS.  But I?m VERY SERIOUS about considering the option of the extended Pistol Grip option.  If I can get something like Val?s Pistol Grip which doesn?t interfere with the flow/aesthetics of the body, and which adds an inch of ?reach?, I?ll want to get it, and price/affordability would be/is the only consideration.
 
The last I checked (earlier today) I still hadn?t received any price/info for this feature.  Actually, the most simple thing would seem to be to post it here, but if for any reason you prefer to send it privately via email, I?ll remind you my email address is: charlieshep@cox.net  
 
I should be able to give you a decision on this final detail pretty quickly upon receiving a price, and even quicker if there?s a mockup/picture to compare to/evaluate visually.
 
Also ?reminder- I?m still interested on price info for the ?mini-Omega? in the peghead.
 
Thanks again for your devotion to detail and greatness, Mica & gang!
 
I look forward to getting this info, so this can be resolved and put back into production!
 
P.S. Tomorrow -well, actually today (Friday) I'll be leaving for work by 6:30 a.m. and hopefully back before 4:00, at which point I'll immediately check back here, and possibly call, bassed on what's happening.  But I won't be here much before then.  If we don't hook up for whatever reason, I wish you all a happy weekend!
 
Mark

By the way, I'm starting to think that Burl Redwood Balance K is the prettiest I've EVER seen... if I wasn't so totally sold and gung-ho on the Coco Bolo and it's sound...
 
Wow, it REALLY looks awesome!

Maybe I'm missing something here, Mark, but why would the overall length of the string be an issue?  As we discussed in an earlier thread, what's above the nut doesn't affect the tension.  Pitch is a function of the combination of gauge, scale & tension, so I would think that the quest, rather than finding a specific overall length, would instead be to find a gauge that gives you the tension you want on your scale and still feels good.  If it's too long, just clip off the excess.  Us guitar types do it all the time.  Or, to look at it another way, if you want a 33 scale, the tension WILL be less with the same strings, so your decision is whether the tension is more important to your fingers than the reach. If reach is the main thing, long-scale strings will cover 33 as well as 34.  If the tension is more important, go with the long scale.  But I wouldn't base the choice on a lack of medium scale strings.  But if there's a factor I'm missing, please enlighten me; I freely admit (though never to my children) that there are many things I don't know.
 
Peter

NOTE: I'm submitting this post in 2 places: here, and in the Build Record & Discussion area.
 
Hi all.  I just got off the phone with Valentino, and based on our conversation, I now feel COMPLETELY secure with my decision to stick with the Balance K Omega.  Further, (again, based on that conversation) there doesn't seem to be any need for an extended horn/pistol grip.  So I'm withdrawing the request for price info on that.
 
So I'm giving you the go-ahead to proceed with the original plan, and I appreciate your having beared with me while I went through the necessary inconvenience of figuring it out and making sure I'd get the right thing for me.  I now feel very confident about it.
 
So at this point, I'm going to kick back and leave y'all alone for a while.  The biggest pending issue is just the Coco Bolo, and again, I'd appreciate the opportunity to see & approve your choices.  Other than that, the only other small things are the estimate for the 5-screw setup and a price for the peghead Omega; and both of these are minor details that can be addressed down the road when the bass is actually built, so there's no hurry.
 
I'll be keeping my eyes peeled here on FTC, and anxiously anticipating and appreciating the updates as they come, however big or small!  I look forward to the next stage -which I assume is putting on the body wings.
 
Thanks again for everything, and have a great weekend, folks.
 
Mark

NOTE: I'm submitting this post in 2 places: here, and in the concerns over reach thread in changes/additions.
 
Hi all.  I just got off the phone with Valentino, and based on our conversation, I now feel COMPLETELY secure with my decision to stick with the Balance K Omega.  Further, (again, based on that conversation) there doesn't seem to be any need for an extended horn/pistol grip.  So I'm withdrawing the request for price info on that.
 
So I'm giving you the go-ahead to proceed with the original plan, and I appreciate your having beared with me while I went through the necessary inconvenience of figuring it out and making sure I'd get the right thing for me.  I now feel very confident about it.
 
So at this point, I'm going to kick back and leave y'all alone for a while.  The biggest pending issue is just the Coco Bolo, and again, I'd appreciate the opportunity to see & approve your choices.  Other than that, the only other small things are the estimate for the 5-screw setup and a price for the peghead Omega; and both of these are minor details that can be addressed down the road when the bass is actually built, so there's no hurry.
 
I'll be keeping my eyes peeled here on FTC, and anxiously anticipating and appreciating the updates as they come, however big or small!  I look forward to the next stage -which I assume is putting on the body wings.
 
Thanks again for everything, and have a great weekend, folks.
 
Mark

Peter, after reading and rereading your post, I'm completely clueless about what you're referring to. You ask why would the overall length of the string be an issue?  Uhm... I don't know.  Who's saying it is, and where?  You state As we discussed in an earlier thread, what's above the nut doesn't affect the tension.  I remember... but... why are you bringing it up... what's it got to do with anything here?  I'm not clear.  This thread is about concern over the reach... the distance my hand/arm must reach to reach the 1st fret -NOT about overall string length nor the length of string above the nut.
 
I can't see any point/connection to anything that has been said here.
 
(Don't take that the wrong way, ya rascal... I appreciate 'yer feedback!  Thanks again for sharing your thoughts on that previous thread!)

Two posts above mine, you were worrying over the trouble with finding medium gauge strings, and seemed to be leaning away from your first choice of scale due to that.  
 
( I was unable to find even ONE set of medium-scale 6-string strings ?from ANYONE!!! That sealed the deal on a 34 being the thing. I?m not going to order an instrument with a medium or medium-long scale when apparently no strings exist for them (or are this hard to find)!)  
 
I was wondering why the easier availablity of longer strings would dictate a change to 34 when a pair of sidecuts can render them any (shorter) length you want.  Sorry if I misunderstood your lament.
 
And, oh yeah - I LOVE that neck!
 
Peter
 
(Message edited by Cozmik_Cowboy on January 05, 2007)

I've got your body shape recorded as Balance K with Omega cutout now. We're almost ready to lift the hold.
 
Okay, now that I reread your post, it seems you're not quite as ready on the body shape as I first thought (sorry sometimes I do get lost in a long post). What I heard from Val this afternoon was that we were sticking with the Balance K Omega style.  
 
Any custom body shape design starts at $650. This is not an item that is discounted through the dealer as it's strictly labor. It's not as simple as just adding a horn from one to the other; even when you change one small part, every curve needs to be reconsidered or it will look stuck on. If the details of the custom shape impact labor, like with extra carving for a pistol grip, you'll be charged for that as well.
 
Even though Valentino's Bird of Prey is based on the Balance K, it's a dedicated shape with many subtle changes to the perimeter, and not so subtle changes (like the extra pointies). To adapt this shape with the pistol grip (it must have two points in it - too long for any other consideration), it's still a custom design. It still gets the full attention of our staff to make sure it will be beautiful and functional.  
 
Now, I don't recall that we've made a Balance K with a pistol grip yet. The pistol grip option is an additional $300. Since it's a template that we'll use and reuse many times, we wouldn't charge the $650 minimum custom body shape design fee. Of course, you'd have like the shape we come up with for our standard library. Just some food for thought.  
 
See peghead shape thread for the last little bit.
 
(Message edited by mica on January 05, 2007)